#230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strange that I did not anticipate the kick. However, I don't think this is much of a problem. The 3-3 is still possible from here and I can make a decent base on the top which was my goal all along anyway.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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skydyr
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Who gets more?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the one hand I get a 2-space extension that strengthens the left. However I also have over-concentrated shape and my opponent is looking very strong on the top.


This looks great for black to me. The corner is still open, black doesn't have to worry about the invasion and got rock-solid with extra points, and white is also susceptible to a shoulder hit at K16 to keep him low.
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, that wasn't entirely what I anticipated, but that's fine. I like :black:'s move more than what I foresaw.

Regardless, I believe :black: can still play the move I predicted. Whether :black: will or not is up to :black:.

And I've got a plan on how to proceed from here.
Slava Ukraini!
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Bill Spight
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Somehow, this does not seem to be widely known. :w24: secures the corner. :)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is okay for me. I have a base and the 3-3 is still open while white isn't all that strong. I'm glad hailthron decided to pull back with a small knight. It makes my left a bit less of a problem. I still think that is my weakest area on this board.

However, I think white is weaker. He may want to consider fixing on the bottom somehow. However, that's so gote and most players at my level (including myself) don't bother "fixing" things. We just "read" 2 or 3 moves and say "It's fine!" to grab sente.

I expect 1 of 3 moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Possible moves for white.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a W . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I were white, I would still invade on the left now with the aim of splitting off the lone stone and possibly fixing the problems there in sente. I may also consider the right. I see the move at the top a fair bit around my level and lower. However, I think this move (or at 'a') is a bit slow even if it does help secure the corner. I might not even respond locally and instead play at 'b' to help both my groups.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Bill Spight
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

skydyr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Who gets more?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks great for black to me. The corner is still open, black doesn't have to worry about the invasion and got rock-solid with extra points, and white is also susceptible to a shoulder hit at K16 to keep him low.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White framework
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black top side base
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White did not play :w4: in the second diagram, but even so, it is better for Black to make a base, sharing the top side than to let White make a framework and then invade or reduce.

Evaluation is not so obvious with the sente-gote difference, but the Black extension on the left side does not gain much, and he ends up overcrowded.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Attach and block
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Besides, the attach and block looks very nice for White. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, Black can avoid being cramped on the top side by approaching with :b19: before settling the top right. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Figure I'll go ahead and take advantage of this move. I worry this might be a little early, but I can't really see a reason to avoid it.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like this move is pretty good for me. Yeah, my shape is ugly, but I wanted to play more solidly here in the first place and now my group is solid. It reduces the aji of a white invasion and helps to strengthen me to take advantage of weaknesses on the bottom.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Sorry for the lack of responses for awhile.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This wasn't the move I had originally intended to play. But I've rethought it and decided to go here.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . 9 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's alright. :salute:

This seems premature. I suppose this is an advantage of having played the outside stone this close - he can probably live in this corner now. Even if I could kill him, however, I'm not sure I need to. If he lives small in gote I'll have outside influence to invade/reduce the bottom.

Perhaps, however, this is a probe. If so I think it's a good one. I hope my opponent isn't just probing here to see how I respond because that is a technique I always misuse, whereas this seems like a legit probe.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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skydyr
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

moyoaji wrote:
This seems premature. I suppose this is an advantage of having played the outside stone this close - he can probably live in this corner now. Even if I could kill him, however, I'm not sure I need to. If he lives small in gote I'll have outside influence to invade/reduce the bottom.

Perhaps, however, this is a probe. If so I think it's a good one. I hope my opponent isn't just probing here to see how I respond because that is a technique I always misuse, whereas this seems like a legit probe.


@moyoaji
Assuming it's a probe, what do you think it would be probing for? What sorts of followups do you envision for white given black's different possible responses, and for that matter, what other responses did you consider?
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

skydyr wrote:@moyoaji
Assuming it's a probe, what do you think it would be probing for? What sorts of followups do you envision for white given black's different possible responses, and for that matter, what other responses did you consider?

The only other move I strongly considered was 'b' - which seems like the best way to try to kill black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . a W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I think white could have been probing to see if I was comfortable letting him live in the corner here or if I really wanted to kill him.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 5 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . 6 X 2 b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both 'a' and 'b' have problems and I don't think white can make it work without a double hane ko at 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Capture at 'a' fix the cut at 'c'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . b . 3 7 9 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 6 . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O X O O 5 a |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . 2 X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White could also use the aji like this to split up the right. For these reasons I didn't want to play 'b'.

Then I thought about how white could use this like a probe. So what could white do based on these responses?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . B W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . b . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Based on my response at 'a' he could leave his stone there, with the aji of making life or invading at 'a' more successfully. In the mean time, as I have made myself stronger on the outside he can defend bottom side at one of the 'b' moves or invade at 'c'.

Had I done 'b' instead, the aji is different. Maybe white could get something like this? Afterall, 1 is sente and 3 threatens to invade strongly at 4. By playing at 'b' I've declared that I'm going to commit to making sure the probe is dead so playing like this would be consistent. If his goal is to build the bottom then sacing the stone in the corner could be fantastic.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . 2 W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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skydyr
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

In moyoaji's diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Capture at 'a' fix the cut at 'c'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . b . 3 7 9 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 6 . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O X O O 5 a |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . 2 X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black could intersperse 8 to the right of B. If white saves the stone, black continues as in the diagram, but the ladder works for black so white is cut. If white plays A or at 8 instead, black captures and has a thick center position while white still needs to live. White will have aji around H3 also that black's thickness exposes. Not sure if this is better than the sequence or not.
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 0 . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . 9 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to go ahead and extend here. There is some concern about the bottom side, but I should be able to handle it.
Slava Ukraini!
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