paK0's goals and dreams

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:22 am

nacroxnicke wrote:Rank doesn't mean progress

The term "rank," in-and-of-itself, is not the same thing as progress. But saying this is the same thing as saying "A ladder doesn't mean climbing."

First, this is not helpful. Even if gaining ranks didn't actually mean the same thing as progress. (How can it functionally not?) There are no objective measures of strength in go without ranks.

You could argue that the ability to solve go problems is a measure of strength, but even this cannot be objective because there is no way to grade problems without having some type of understanding of rank. A friend and I used to do problems together and sometimes one of us would get the answer right away while the other had to think longer. So one problem was more difficult of me than for him and vice versa. This is a problem for objective measures, unless you use ranks. Then you can say "80% of 20k players were able to solve this problem. Therefore it is appropriate for 20k players." A 20k problem does not mean every 20k can solve it without help, it doesn't even mean a 1 dan can solve it without help. It simply means that, in most cases, a 20k can solve the problem. Without ranks, the difficulty of a problem is just subjective.

Second, to say that "Rank doesn't mean progress" is just not accurate. Yes, in an absolute sense this statement is true, but the idea behind it is wrong. Gaining ranks is not only a sign of progress, but "to gain a rank" is, by definition, "to progress."

Here are some definitions from TheFreeDictionary.com:
progress (verb) - 2. To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily
rank (noun) - 1. b. An official position or grade

So how is "increasing in rank" - to advance toward a higher position - not defined as progress?

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:01 pm

moyoaji wrote:So how is "increasing in rank" - to advance toward a higher position - not defined as progress?

Well, a few thoughts:
First, rank as defined on one server could change based on drift internal to the server, or given a finite number of games, some degree of chance, when the player is still playing at the same level. Sometimes a player is also good at one strategy that works well against a subset of opponents at a level but not others, so it depends on who gets played.

That aside, I think there is a qualitative difference between what you might call refinement of current technique and incorporation of new technique. One could rank up by, for example, spotting atari more often, but while this starts out, when you start playing, as a new technique you are learning, later on, it's mostly a non-issue. It may gain a rank or two because you blunder less, but this is different from incorporating a new technique or understanding of the game, like 'sometimes you should sacrifice', or even a refinement of your understanding of when to sacrifice. When you realize that sacrificing can be good, you may decrease in rank initially because you don't apply the technique correctly, but I think it's quite arguable that there is definite progress, even if it hasn't manifested itself in a higher rank.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:17 pm

I interpreted as a variation on "worry about improving, not your rank."

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:39 pm

Well, I feel like climbing a rank is pretty much the end result of progress.

If KGS would suddenly promote me to 12k for no reason I would not have gotten better because of that, but earning a new rank singnifies that I increased my win%, which would be a sign of improvement to me.

I know rank might not be the absolute definition of playing skill, but it doesn't really have to be, right now its just a good way to give me a short term goal to go for =)

Going by moyos definition, rank would probably be the amount of progress relative to everybody else that is measured by the system.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:42 pm

paK0 wrote:Well, I feel like climbing a rank is pretty much the end result of progress.

If KGS would suddenly promote me to 12k for no reason I would not have gotten better because of that, but earning a new rank singnifies that I increased my win%, which would be a sign of improvement to me.

I know rank might not be the absolute definition of playing skill, but it doesn't really have to be, right now its just a good way to give me a short term goal to go for =)

KGS could bump you up a rank with your win% staying the same. All you need is enough of your past opponents that you had victories over from the recent past to go up in rank.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:41 am

paK0 wrote:...but earning a new rank singnifies that I increased my win%, which would be a sign of improvement to me.

No. This is a very common misunderstanding. Over the short-term, rating changes are just like the stock market or the weather --
they are merely short-term fluctuations. If you really are improving, then yes, you'll be able to keep your upped rating.
But if you are not really improving, then eventually you'll start to lose enough and your rating will drop back
to what's appropriate for your level. (BTW, many people also don't understand the difference between short-term
fluctuations and the longer term changes in a stock price, either.

)

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:46 pm

So, its been going well today, has been a long time since I got three straight wins.

Anyway, here is the last game, I won with 9,5 points, but it definetely felt like one of my more shaky games, so if someone could review it I would be super happy.

Some of my concerns:
- I took a lot of atari this game, probably too many, which ones were the worst ones?
- I had some stones on the top right that had wall resemblance, I made territory there, but I feel like they kinda went to waste a little, any advice on that?
- Black had a weak group on the left side, I feel like attacking it was a good idea, but my execution was lacking, any comments on that?

As always, thanks a lot

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:16 pm

A few comments:

Regarding the attack on the left side group, because black tenukied to take care of the top, everything was going fairly swimmingly until :w70:

. If white cuts from the other side, at G10, white doesn't have the same shape problem that secured black's group.

Earlier, at move 14, you can attach at P17 and if black tries to cut, you can crosscut and leave him with miai to lose the outside or some of the inside stones.

At move 26, black's extension just makes his stone heavier, because he has no base as yet. Instead of taking a point in the corner, white can make a big extension/pincer from the top left corner basically for free.

At 30 or 32, an approach to a 4-4 stone is fairly urgent, so you should respond there somehow. Black's stones are pretty far apart, so a pincer in between that splits them may be best.

Move 36: This is premature, and the top left is much more urgent, but locally, the idea seems fine.

Move 48: This is good, but it surprises me that both sides left it alone for so long.

Move 124: This is good. After this, if white continues in the corner, white should at least be able to get a ko to kill.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:04 pm

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Here are some comments. Overall I think you did well in that game.

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:01 am

Thanks a lot guys.

Seems like the thing that is most lacking is reading and attacking, I'll try to focus on that over the next time.

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:08 pm

So, I've been winning some more and that makes a lot more fun than loosing XD.

But I make sure to produce some games that manage to make my eyes bleed on a regular basis which sometimes makes it hard to belive that I'm getting better x.X.

Anyway, here is the game, I won in the end, but it was super close, I was behind quite a bit, but I was lucky to catch one group of his, still overall I feel like this was extremely poorly played on my part and I should not have won that.

Some questions:
- In the beginning I have never seen the Joseki in the bottom left and was kinda clueless, at which level should I start to learn some basic joseki?
- When would have been the best time to get into the left side? I feel like that would have warranted some action, I got most of the right as compensation, but those two areas were both way too big to be real.

As always, thank you for your comments

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:04 pm

paK0 wrote:I have never seen the Joseki in the bottom left and was kinda clueless, at which level should I start to learn some basic joseki?

Whenever you feel like it. We are all amateurs, so this is all "for fun".
In fact, I suspect the best time is when you feel like it.

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:53 am

Thanks, not seeing that squeeze really bums me out, I have done that so many times on goproblems...

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:12 am

Well another game that I lost quite horribly. The guy played a lot of weird stuff and again I failed to take advantage in any way. Any comments appreciated.

I've recently noticed a trend in my games, I often end up with the smaller mojo, so I have to do a lot of reducing to actually have a chance, not sure when this started, but I have to take care of that at some point.

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