Black to move. I have marked some possible moves where I think the best one is within there. Can some stronger player tell, what the best move is and if any of my suggestions are actually "not so good"? Also interesting: Is the game still even or has someone an advantage here?
Best-next-move-Question
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Bill Spight
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
I have ordered plays alphabetically. 
First, I think that Black is a bit ahead, because of the White kick in the top left corner.
Of the two big plays on the side I prefer A, because B gives White a good play by approaching the bottom right corner. Also, the top right corner is settled, which means that the bottom side is hotter than the right side.
Then we have the enclosures of the bottom right corner. I like the large knight's enclosure better than the small knight's enclosure. I know that the small enclosure is popular these days, but. . . . I classed both small knight's enclosures the same. Not much difference, I suppose.
Next we get the approach to the bottom left corner. But there are other options, which I am satisfied to leave open. I don't think that White will immediately extend on the bottom side, and I would not mind if he did.
Next, the jump on the left side. Not a play that I would consider in a game, but it develops the side.
I admire the shoulder hit at G, but it is not so easy to capitalize on it, IMX.
H is the way to reduce the top side, but it is premature.
The jump to I develops the left side. It would be more attractive if White had made a large knight's extension.
The 3-3 invasions are premature, and the attachment on the top side is the wrong way to reduce, I think. Oh, yes, there is the other shoulder hit.
First, I think that Black is a bit ahead, because of the White kick in the top left corner.
Of the two big plays on the side I prefer A, because B gives White a good play by approaching the bottom right corner. Also, the top right corner is settled, which means that the bottom side is hotter than the right side.
Then we have the enclosures of the bottom right corner. I like the large knight's enclosure better than the small knight's enclosure. I know that the small enclosure is popular these days, but. . . . I classed both small knight's enclosures the same. Not much difference, I suppose.
Next we get the approach to the bottom left corner. But there are other options, which I am satisfied to leave open. I don't think that White will immediately extend on the bottom side, and I would not mind if he did.
Next, the jump on the left side. Not a play that I would consider in a game, but it develops the side.
I admire the shoulder hit at G, but it is not so easy to capitalize on it, IMX.
H is the way to reduce the top side, but it is premature.
The jump to I develops the left side. It would be more attractive if White had made a large knight's extension.
The 3-3 invasions are premature, and the attachment on the top side is the wrong way to reduce, I think. Oh, yes, there is the other shoulder hit.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
Too early to play the top moves. Globally, right side is bigger than bottom since white has little development potential on bottom.
The thing that irks me are the weaknesses in the bottom left extension, combined with the two white stones there. I feel that area is not that settled, but i don't know the best move.
So i'd either play on right, or do something about the bottom left.
The thing that irks me are the weaknesses in the bottom left extension, combined with the two white stones there. I feel that area is not that settled, but i don't know the best move.
So i'd either play on right, or do something about the bottom left.
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Shaddy
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
The first thing that strikes me is Bill's A, but thinking about it, I don't feel like it's a move that current pros would play. I'd probably enclose with C or D.
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macelee
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
O3 is my choice. It is a calm move, creating a very valuable move R5. White would have to somehow enter the right side or reduce the corner now. Depending the outcome, other plans can follow. For example, if black becomes strong outside, 3-3 invasion at C3 would become really good.
N3 is similar to O3 - really a personal preference.
N3 is similar to O3 - really a personal preference.
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Pippen
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
macelee wrote:O3 is my choice. It is a calm move, creating a very valuable move R5. White would have to somehow enter the right side or reduce the corner now. Depending the outcome, other plans can follow. For example, if black becomes strong outside, 3-3 invasion at C3 would become really good.
N3 is similar to O3 - really a personal preference.
I had the same idea originally, I just was unsure if Q10/Q9 wouldn't be better, because at least it'd "look" larger^^.
The problem with N3 and a large knight is that you often do not have sente if white enters the corner. With the small knight you know you got sente. Big difference...still I often play large knight because it suits my greed better, because it "looks" more ambitious^^.
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nacroxnicke
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
I would play H3, after that the corner would need reinforcement, and if he doesn't reinforce it, whatever fight that start will weaken it to dangerous levels, but that's me and i'm weak and I just fight over all the board 
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Pippen
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
nacroxnicke wrote:I would play H3, after that the corner would need reinforcement, and if he doesn't reinforce it, whatever fight that start will weaken it to dangerous levels, but that's me and i'm weak and I just fight over all the board
Hm...interesting question. My gut feeling tells me that H3 should be played later, e.g. AFTER small knight at O3, not immediately. But I cannot give an explanation.
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macelee
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
is not a good move. After 
defence, the bottom side is wide open, and invasion at 'a' become more serious. So this is not good for black.-
Kirby
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
It appears to be a consensus (with the exception of my comment) that the bottom is a bigger area to play than the side. Indeed, I can feel the benefits of playing on the bottom, and probably a couple of weeks ago, I would have made a similar assessment - white can have her stones working together smoothly by approaching the bottom right 4-4, so it makes sense that it's a good place to play.
However, my thought process changed a little bit when I listened to a lecture a couple of weeks ago. Here was the board position in the lecture:
Now before seeing the lecture, if we compare the bottom and right sides, I would definitely have thought that the marked area would be a great place to play for white:
It works nicely with white's wall on the bottom, and simultaneously approaches the black 4-4 stone.
But the lecturer thought differently. He indicated that white cannot easily finish developing the bottom side in a good way. For example, if they play a basic joseki:
White is clearly too low.
If white tries to play higher, black has a good response at the invasion point at
, below:
Therefore, he concluded, it was more valuable to approach the right side, and let the bottom be, for the time being:
It seemed to make sense - white can't get a super result on the bottom, so let's play on the right.
Applying the same thought process here, I figured that, as in the example I watched in this lecture, white cannot develop well on the bottom (if it were white's turn to play). I don't know where white follows up, if black plays as follows. Maybe the last move shown?:
It's still easy to invade in this area, no matter where white plays. Because this area wouldn't be as big for white, it shouldn't be as big for black, I figured. So, by the logic of the lecture I watched, I figured this position was similar to what I had seen.
I think what Bill mentioned about the top right area being "finished" by black has merit, so in that sense, the bottom seems more appealing in some ways. But I wonder, concretely, what the differences are between this position and the one I saw in the lecture. My rationale for why the lecture approach was good on the right must be somewhat incomplete, since it perhaps does not apply here.
Any thoughts?
However, my thought process changed a little bit when I listened to a lecture a couple of weeks ago. Here was the board position in the lecture:
Now before seeing the lecture, if we compare the bottom and right sides, I would definitely have thought that the marked area would be a great place to play for white:
It works nicely with white's wall on the bottom, and simultaneously approaches the black 4-4 stone.
But the lecturer thought differently. He indicated that white cannot easily finish developing the bottom side in a good way. For example, if they play a basic joseki:
White is clearly too low.
If white tries to play higher, black has a good response at the invasion point at
, below:Therefore, he concluded, it was more valuable to approach the right side, and let the bottom be, for the time being:
It seemed to make sense - white can't get a super result on the bottom, so let's play on the right.
Applying the same thought process here, I figured that, as in the example I watched in this lecture, white cannot develop well on the bottom (if it were white's turn to play). I don't know where white follows up, if black plays as follows. Maybe the last move shown?:
It's still easy to invade in this area, no matter where white plays. Because this area wouldn't be as big for white, it shouldn't be as big for black, I figured. So, by the logic of the lecture I watched, I figured this position was similar to what I had seen.
I think what Bill mentioned about the top right area being "finished" by black has merit, so in that sense, the bottom seems more appealing in some ways. But I wonder, concretely, what the differences are between this position and the one I saw in the lecture. My rationale for why the lecture approach was good on the right must be somewhat incomplete, since it perhaps does not apply here.
Any thoughts?
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macelee
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
I do not fully agree with your lecturer. His first point is clearly correct:
White is clearly too low.
His second point is somewhat sensible - it is often a good idea to approach from the wider side.
However in this particular opening, in fact there were many professional games in which white approach the corner from the bottom side, including this one played by Lee Changho (http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/7501/20).
Note that white should not use this to secure territory at bottom side - this is difficult to do, because of 'a' and the aji of the marked stone. Instead white wants black to invade so that he can create favourable fighting conditions in which his wall can be effectively used.
This is another popular opening:
White can make
/ 
exchange first, before approaching another corner. White does not worry about the bottom-side invasions at the moment because he has a solid wall there waiting, and 'a' remains possible.
White is clearly too low.
His second point is somewhat sensible - it is often a good idea to approach from the wider side.
However in this particular opening, in fact there were many professional games in which white approach the corner from the bottom side, including this one played by Lee Changho (http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/7501/20).
Note that white should not use this to secure territory at bottom side - this is difficult to do, because of 'a' and the aji of the marked stone. Instead white wants black to invade so that he can create favourable fighting conditions in which his wall can be effectively used.
This is another popular opening:
White can make
/ exchange first, before approaching another corner. White does not worry about the bottom-side invasions at the moment because he has a solid wall there waiting, and 'a' remains possible.-
Bill Spight
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Re: Best-next-move-Question
Kirby wrote:It appears to be a consensus (with the exception of my comment) that the bottom is a bigger area to play than the side. Indeed, I can feel the benefits of playing on the bottom, and probably a couple of weeks ago, I would have made a similar assessment - white can have her stones working together smoothly by approaching the bottom right 4-4, so it makes sense that it's a good place to play.
However, my thought process changed a little bit when I listened to a lecture a couple of weeks ago. Here was the board position in the lecture:
Now before seeing the lecture, if we compare the bottom and right sides, I would definitely have thought that the marked area would be a great place to play for white:
It works nicely with white's wall on the bottom, and simultaneously approaches the black 4-4 stone.
But the lecturer thought differently. He indicated that white cannot easily finish developing the bottom side in a good way. For example, if they play a basic joseki:
White is clearly too low.
If white tries to play higher, black has a good response at the invasion point at
Therefore, he concluded, it was more valuable to approach the right side, and let the bottom be, for the time being:
It seemed to make sense - white can't get a super result on the bottom, so let's play on the right.
Applying the same thought process here, I figured that, as in the example I watched in this lecture, white cannot develop well on the bottom (if it were white's turn to play). I don't know where white follows up, if black plays as follows. Maybe the last move shown?:
It's still easy to invade in this area, no matter where white plays. Because this area wouldn't be as big for white, it shouldn't be as big for black, I figured. So, by the logic of the lecture I watched, I figured this position was similar to what I had seen.
I think what Bill mentioned about the top right area being "finished" by black has merit, so in that sense, the bottom seems more appealing in some ways. But I wonder, concretely, what the differences are between this position and the one I saw in the lecture. My rationale for why the lecture approach was good on the right must be somewhat incomplete, since it perhaps does not apply here.
Any thoughts?
The lecturer had a point to make, and it was a good one. But he sort of stacked the deck. (That's OK. You keep things simple to get your point across.
) He did not talk about these diagrams. In the first one White makes a high extension, and in the second
invites an invasion. How good a play is depends in part on how well you can develop from it, and that was his key point.
Another point is that, despite the aji of the
stone, the bottom left side is fairly settled. Therefore the gain for White in the first diagram, even though White has made a high extension, is relatively small. That means that this exchange is relatively good for Black, since
gains more than .Edit: I see that Lee Changho disagrees.
Likewise, this exchange is relatively good for White.
IMO, Black should pincer instead.In this position, IMO the best corner approaches are to the top right corner. I like approaching from the top, but you can make a case for approaching from the right. OC, you can also make a case for the wedge on the right side.
In Pippen's example the White stones in the bottom left have a base, but are not settled. It is not really comparable to your example. If you form a moyo, of course the opponent can invade. In your example where Black invades, White has spent eight stones net on the bottom side, and it is still vulnerable.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.