Working through the kyus! (Easier said than done)

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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moyoaji
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

So this essay came out as a bit more of a brain vomit than a cohesive piece, but I think it gets across the thoughts I had when reading Tesuji on Monday. (Takes time to write 3-page essay about sudden revelation; does not take time to edit said essay. Interesting to see where and when you decide to be lazy. :roll:) My signature can apply to this and this can be treated like a game to be reviewed. Feel free to criticize this and to outright disagree with me. (Yeah! Now that's more like it! :tmbup:) As long as the comments are constructive I will not be offended. (Aw, they have to be constructive? :cry:)

The Essay:
How Reading and Reading are Similar

Introduction
I had a revelation that reading in go and reading books is much more similar than I originally thought. I didn't really see much of a connection between the two terms - reading was just what it was called when you imagined moves. No questions asked.

Now, I’m the type of person who enjoys a good novel. I’ve read some classics, some modern classics, and some things that might be regarded as trash by those with more sophisticated tastes. And I also have aspirations to someday be an author myself – though that dream may seem farfetched.

The challenges involved in becoming a published author are similar to those involved in becoming a top go player. Hard work and dedication - along with some natural talent - is all required and the approval of others is needed to truly find success. Good go is not played in a vacuum. Yet I find myself procrastinating on writing a novel and procrastinating when it comes to learning how to read well in go. Why, though? Why should I have a hard time with either of these things?

Mostly boredom, to be honest. Even so, I don't think reading in go should be seen as a boring chore. I had a bad idea about it and I hope to correct my thinking for the future.

Go as a Sport
I’ve heard of a debate between Korean and Japanese players about whether go is a sport or an art. In Korea they seem to treat it as a sport – it is all about being the best. In Japan, however, it is more like an art. Maybe it is some of both - yet I've also heard that it cannot be both.

If go is like a sport, then I want to be an athlete. I want to go out and train and play hard and win games and get stronger so I can beat better opponents and win more games. If I play enough then the stings of mistakes will heal over like muscle tissue – stronger than ever – and I will go on to victory.

Reading is for eggheads, right? So why would I read if I want to be an athlete? Some could argue that reading in go is basically the equivalent of playing on the field or, at the very least, that it is like a coach going through his play book. If you want to win you need to have a good playbook and you need to know it. You need to be able to execute the plays.

I’ve never found that argument very compelling. “You should read more because if you don’t you will lose.” The problem is, I’ve won games on very little reading. If I was comfortable with my current rank, or being a few ranks lower, I would skip this part because it seems the most boring. Whenever any athlete talks about going over a playbook before the game they are never excited. It is a chore. It is what they do because their coach says so. And who wants to do that? Scoring points is more fun than making sure you know how your coach wants you to play. So you messed up the play? Big deal, your team still won. And that attitude can get you places to a point – especially if you are comfortable never reaching the top.

Go as Mental Competition
There are also those who say go is like a mental arena. That reading is the real battle going on between the minds. That the game is so much deeper than the moves played because each move is a counter to a move that could be played 2 or 5 or 50 moves from now.

Go is sometimes referred to as “hand talk” – the idea being that with every move you play you are telling your opponent something. They can respond with the next move. And the game, as a whole, is a conversation. This would make go almost like a debate – another form of mental battle that can be more about what your opponent could say than what they actually do say – preventing them from making a strong argument by discrediting it before they do.

Perhaps with each stone you read you are having a hypothetical discussion with your opponent. You are trying to predict their responses. That would mean that when you say “my opponent will play here” you are basically putting words in the other player’s mouth and that is never good. So often I find myself doing this. “My opponent must play here! There is no other option!” And then I don’t read for other options, plan for my opponent saying this, and then I am left looking like a fool as my opponent says something completely different.

But we don’t play go for the sake of debate. Maybe in a grudge match between clubs or when sparing to try to prove who is the stronger we play go for the sake of debate. Usually, however, we play the game of go as a game – we play for entertainment.
The problem is, reading does not have immediate feedback. Playing without reading is like shooting the breeze with a friend. You may not say anything constructive, but it is a lot more fun than having a serious debate.

It seems like the boredom of reading should keep it forever out of our games. After all, we aren’t pro. We aren’t doing this for a living. We are doing this to have fun, so excuse me if I want to have fun playing a game!

Go as Entertainment
And that is where we come back to this idea – reading in go is like reading a book.

Most people don’t like reading until they do it. It is like this thing you know you should do, that some part of you wants to do, but that you don’t do most of the time. It take a rare person to be a truly regular reader. Yet for almost everyone, once you actually sit down and open up the book, you enjoy it immensely and wonder why it has been so long since you last read.
And reading in go can be the same way. It can be just as surprisingly fun as reading a book.

With each path you read you are coming up with a story. Each stone placed is a word or phrase and together they tell about an outcome in the game. It really is like reading a novel. The story is fake – it never actually happened. But if you’ve ever enjoyed reading a novel or playing the “what-if” game then why should it be so hard to find the same fun in reading out plays?

I definitely think this can be the case in the opening. Do I play a conventional 4-4 or a surprising 6-4? You have that option and the story of that game will branch from your choice. Do you approach the 4-4 or the 3-4? Do you build a framework or prevent your opponent from making a framework? Any of these could make a great story and it can be fun to play a game by yourself in your mind’s eye – I play a 3-3, my opponent plays a 3-4. Which way is the 3-4 facing? It is in the opposite corner, so it doesn’t really matter. I play a 3-4 facing my own 3-3. They play another 3-4 preparing to enclose the first and get a nice framework. What do I do? I approach right away low. Then they approach me high. If you play enough go you can envision this all easily. You can see the board right now in front of you. That game could exist – but it doesn’t. It is all in your imagination. All I’ve done is told you a story.

Go as Writing
And so when we read in go we can tell different stories to ourselves. Yet there comes that moment in every reader’s life when they take a new step. A big step. Putting pen to paper or fingers to keys to do an important extension of reading. The thing that makes reading possible in the first place – they go to write.

When we are better versed in reading books we can write better stories. Authors have given this advice for years – “What should you do if you want to be a good author? Read a lot of books.” And that is our game experience. As we play and review games we are reading books – go books that show us new possibilities.

Authors go through drafts – maybe five drafts, maybe five dozen drafts – before they release their final product. And each game we play is a collaborative novel. A first draft is okay – that would be a game without reading. I play the first idea I have. And someone experienced enough might make a good first draft with few errors. The more experience they have, the better their first draft will be. Yet if we want to write a masterpiece we need to be comfortable with the fact that it is going to take more than one draft.

And all of those novels I read before that. The classics, the modern classics, and even the trash. And my own writing – the novels I gave up on writing because they weren’t going anywhere, and the essays I turned in at school. They all come into play again. Not always tangibly, but they are all there helping me to write a better story.

Closing Thoughts
In my next game I will try to go about playing with a smile on my face. When I think “what if my opponent played here” I will read farther ahead, thinking about what story those moves tell. Is it one my opponent would want to share with me – a story that we can both agree is worth telling? I won’t know until I write down my move. Once written it will be a part of history – of a story being told right now about stones and influence and a desire to win.

So I'll try to come up with the best story I can. When reading, I'll imagine the truly best move for my opponent – imagine that their argument will be flawless – and then feel some sadness for them if they fall short. The book I'm writing with each game is collaborative. The greatest go games in history were not the one-sided slaughters of innocent kyus. They were the matches between top dans. Games where neither player neither player backed down until it was truly over.

I am neither a top dan nor a best-selling author, and I don't have more than daydreams about becoming either. That being said, reading is important to both. And maybe if I read more - read more in go and read more books - then just maybe...


(I figured I could do you guys a favor by giving you all a summary. Frankly, this thing is too long for anyone to want to read...

TL;DR - Playing a good game of go is like trying to write a good novel - the experiences had when reading are important in both. Reading in go is like coming up with drafts of your work for a story. And reading in go can be fun because each sequence you read is like telling a story about how the game could have gone.

There were also other analogies about sports and debating and it ended with something sappy about how maybe someday moyoaji could be good at go. I'm 99% "someday" is in a distant future when human brains are merged with supercomputers. :ugeek:
)
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by Boidhre »

I'm really not sure that I couldn't replace reading (as in books) with almost any human activity there. The analogy doesn't really work for me, reading is too passive a process (not to say that it's passive but the idea of a true dialogue between writer and reader is a bit strained).

I agree with you about reading (as in moves) but would liken it more to the enjoyment found in trying to solve a difficult problem/puzzle/question. The MCM competition in mathematical modelling springs to mind as something that felt somewhat similar. Each to their own of course.
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

Thanks for the comments, Boidhre. I can see where you are coming from. Much of the idea for this came from a combination of reading Lessons and Tesuji. In both of those books the authors seem to speak directly to the reader. (They are books trying to teach you stuff, so no duh. Kindergarten activity books do the same thing...) I can agree that reading in games can be a lot like doing problems or puzzles. After all, tsumego books are basically puzzle books. That being said, I feel the process in a game is a bit more creative. Puzzles are more static - they always have the same solution - but a go game against someone new, or even old, is dynamic. It is less like solving a puzzle and more like drawing a free-form picture - it will create something unique. (Okay, puzzle books and drawings. Do you want some crayons for those? ;-))

Now, take a look at this picture I drew earlier today:


I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)

Pro game featuring a similar sequence:
Chinese Women's League Game - I got the moves a bit wrong, I wasn't supposed to jump. (You can't even copy moves right! :lol:)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31 Tao Ran 1p (B) vs. Chen Yiming 2p (W)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 2 O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

:w28: is a good example of what I was talking about in my essay. I could have played almost any approach against the two black corners. None of them seems innately bad, so it is just a choice. I could have also split black at K3 or enclosed my own corner. Any of these is valid. I chose to try to build the right along with my own hoshi stone instead of splitting black. The game would have been totally different, but that was not the story I wanted to tell. I wanted to play a game that was calm with an edge. A game where I would wait for my opponent to make a mistake. And that is what happened. (As with all of your wins...)

:w30: was another move I liked. I decided my first approach could be pretty light since my goal was more to build the side than take the corner. Although it could have ended in gote, I also liked :w36: to get me a larger corner and plenty of the left.

:w44: was an experiment that I didn't care for much once I played it, but it absolutely defined the game. The game became about 2 groups. The one I made at :w44: and the one black made by capping me.

:b83: seemed like an impossible mistake. It was exactly what I wanted black to do - my thought was, if he invades now I can destroy him in the center, or later I get a big corner. Why would black give me thickness and influence when his group is not safe in the center? All I can think is that greed got the better of him. (Yeah, because you've never been greedy in go...)

:b93: was unexpected. A good read on black's part to win my little white wall of stones - although I could have saved them in gote. However, I think it was too small compared to my attack in the center. Especially after I got a wall facing the outside. I think my opponent just didn't see how much trouble his group was in. (Maybe it's because sometimes you are absolutely brilliant and no one else sees it? :shock: - Anyone here buy that one? :D)

Move 125 was one I was dreading black would make, but it was pretty much the only move he had and I don't see where I could have prevented it.

Move 154 I thank The Second Book of Go for. It was what I learned about capturing races from Richard Bozulich that made me know I could win.

I couldn't give a full list of all the moves that came directly and indirectly from other sources. I can say "thank you" to almost anyone here for this game. So if you are reading this, thank you for the help you've given me. The dedication page of this book has many names.

So I got in one game today. Tomorrow I will play more games - come up with more stories. Thanks for reading this one. (Cheesy ending and more book analogies. To throw in a musical simile, you sound like a broken record. Although perhaps "corrupted mp3 file" might be more relevant for today's youth... :scratch:)
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by Boidhre »

Can :b15: be at B15? I'm unsure and curious.
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

In my game black probably could go back and fix. The reason another push from behind would be sente is that I could double hane. Since I decided to jump it is less of a problem for black to ignore me. (And that is why the monkey is a better player than moyoaji - when he copies a pro he actually uses the right move.)

Here's a dwryin lecture where he talks about the joseki: His video on Rare Plays
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by Bill Spight »

Boidhre wrote:Can :b15: be at B15? I'm unsure and curious.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

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moyoaji wrote:I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)


I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

Thanks Bill. I think you have demonstrated perfectly why my jump is not played and why the push is infinitely better. (Like always, the pro and the monkey are stronger than the moyoaji... ;-)) To be fair, though, I would never tenuki from those moves. I know how precarious this corner joseki can be.

skydyr wrote:I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.

Which push? The :b11: response? The :b13: response?

I don't see how black could fix at :b11:. What is to stop white from playing a hane immediately? The cut at 'a' is double atari. You can't exactly give your opponent a ponnuki in the center or let him take the centerpiece of your wall right out from under you. The cut at 'b' still doesn't work during any of this. Yeah, I suppose black gets to have influence facing the left like he wanted, but at what cost? (At the cost of giving his opponent influence toward the top and territory in the corner. I thought that was obvious.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Looks great for white
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b O O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X 2 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X . a 3 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


On DailyJoseki there are only 2 moves for :b11: - the push and cutting directly. The push was played 98.5% of the time. (The direct cut leads to the more traditional large avalanche.) After :w12: push the :b13: push was played 95% of the time. And finally after another push black responded again 92.3% of the time. Black doesn't seem to have time to fix the cut unless he is okay with white playing a double hane. (Double hane this and double hane that. You sound like a corrupted mp3 file. :roll:)
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

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moyoaji wrote:
skydyr wrote:I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.

Which push? The :b11: response? The :b13: response?

I don't see how black could fix at :b11:. What is to stop white from playing a hane immediately? The cut at 'a' is double atari. You can't exactly give your opponent a ponnuki in the center or let him take the centerpiece of your wall right out from under you. The cut at 'b' still doesn't work during any of this. Yeah, I suppose black gets to have influence facing the left like he wanted, but at what cost? (At the cost of giving his opponent influence toward the top and territory in the corner. I thought that was obvious.)


I meant pushing once at 11 and then protecting, but I realize I didn't pay close attention and was thinking if white had connected the cut instead of descending.
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by Boidhre »

moyoaji wrote:Thanks Bill. I think you have demonstrated perfectly why my jump is not played and why the push is infinitely better. (Like always, the pro and the monkey are stronger than the moyoaji... ;-)) To be fair, though, I would never tenuki from those moves. I know how precarious this corner joseki can be.


You won't tenuki but you lose the clamp, black gets thickness and sente vs the in-game result. Which was what I was curious about, I didn't think the jump needed to be responded to and leave the big weakness on the side for black. It's interesting that even with the jump answered white still in in trouble.

Thank you, interesting to think about. :)
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by oren »

moyoaji wrote:I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)


This comment confused me, so I had to go look it up. Over the last year when the avalanche is started, the common continuation extending up the side is played 29 times and the descent is 5. It seems to be more common pro play to extend towards a large avalanche opening rather than the descent. A lot will depend on surrounding circumstances of course...
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

oren wrote:This comment confused me, so I had to go look it up. Over the last year when the avalanche is started, the common continuation extending up the side is played 29 times and the descent is 5. It seems to be more common pro play to extend towards a large avalanche opening rather than the descent. A lot will depend on surrounding circumstances of course...

I'm sure the ability to play the descent effectively directly impacts this. For example, if black had a star-point stone on the left the decent and clamp wouldn't work well because the group on the side would have a poor base. So a pro wouldn't offer the avalanche unless they knew this variation would work poorly for the one on the inside. On top of that, this variation allows white to more or less be sealed in the corner in exchange for black's wall not being effective. If white needs to build the top the avalanche is a more effective means of doing that. (Again, trying to understand professional play at your level? For all you know their joseki choice has more to do with the effectiveness of tengen than the right side. :ugeek:)

What I wonder is: How often is the avalanche offered compared to just backing off with the hane? I see that common joseki in 40-50% of pro games. Whereas I haven't seen an avalanche game since that pro game position I showed.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by oren »

I was doing some research and came across this one which made me laugh. I wanted to know what pros played with few moves on the board, but I wasn't expecting this.

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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by moyoaji »

So I got in 2 losses today. (As expected. :salute:) Both by 20+ point margins.

The first one was really hard for me to deal with. I lost because of one move - a failure in a life and death that I knew the answer to but played the wrong move because of a bad read. I even was going to play the right move first, but then changed my mind. (Well, it's not the first time you derped hard in go.) Move 191 should connect the two groups to create a seki.


The second game came down to me making an overly heavy group and trying too hard to save it. I should have been more comfortable with letting my opponent have his framework on the left for longer in the game and not reduced it right away. If there was anything I missed in the insane fighting that ensued do let me know. (I'm sure you missed plenty.)


I need to learn from these mistakes. I'll take time to review these games more fully tomorrow. For now, I'm going to play a game with a friend of mine.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)

Post by Boidhre »

Edit: sorry, wrong one posted first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B This?
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . O . O O O X . |
$$ . O O . X X X . |
$$ . . . X X . O . |
$$ . . O X . 3 O . |
$$ . . O O X . X . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ . . O O . X O . |
$$ . . . . O O 2 . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]


I couldn't find a good :w2: here.
Last edited by Boidhre on Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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