Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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topazg
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Approved!

Don't know about K16 though
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Approved.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, one last move for the sequence. If we let black get G19, this group would become ko otherwise.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Jonas
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Jonas »


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, one last move for the sequence. If we let black get G19, this group would become ko otherwise.



Wouldnt this move be better? Blocking now is gote for Black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . W a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

My take on the last move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe this to be best if black's group is strong. Blocking at 'a' is still gote for black. However,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This may be better in this situation. The difference is that black is left with less potential eyespace.

However,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is worst, but it's what I feared might be played. Now, black gets sente at 'a' anytime (white ignoring leads to ko).

P.S.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Am I crazy, or is 'a' above double-sente?
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I don't approve.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . C . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with :b1:. We have to run with an ugly :w2:. Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with :b3:, and it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Each team has one running group, but black is getting territory in the upper right. This is not good for us.

Let's try to find a better way.

But first, a little tangent for beginners.
=========================================================================

You may have noted that in the above diagram I did not include a move at H18 by black. It seems good at first because it seals white in with sente. But then the cut at I16 works for white.
Once white gets enough liberties in the center, black has to come back and protect in gote, or this happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O W B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 4 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 1 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...whereas without the play at H19, the ladder works for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 4 7 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 1 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black, of course, does not want to have to play too close to his wall to protect that spot like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black would much rather have an extension several spaces from his wall, something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ExtensionFromAWall
=========================================================================


Now, back to the game...

As I wrote earlier, younger brother has the correct goal. We have to get an eye for our upper group. And his reflex to play F19 is good, for F18 is the guaranteed eye, regardless of how hard white attacks.

But there are better ways. If we look at how white attacks the eye, it is with the threat of G19.

...like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O B X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If G19 is the eye-killing move, then the way to save the group is to control G19 ourselves. Once we recognize this refined goal, it is easy to spot two other moves that control G19.

This works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...as does this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I like the second option better because it encroaches more on black's potential territory to the right of the wall, and it cuts down on black's liberties.

Black now has two options: to reply which ends in gote, or to ignore it and tenuki.

If black relies, it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White is out and running between two black groups.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black ignores, the position is similar to diagram 2, except now we can slide into their territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A better version of Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Either of these last two is at least two points better than the suggested move.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by dfan »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with :b1:. We have to run with an ugly :w2:. Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with :b3:, and it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Huh, after :b1: my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. :w2: looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play :w2: means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play :w2: here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Jonas »

dfan wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with :b1:. We have to run with an ugly :w2:. Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with :b3:, and it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Huh, after :b1: my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. :w2: looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play :w2: means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play :w2: here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?


The 3 stones are cutting stones arent they ? I think that makes them worth rescuing ^_^
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by schultz »

Jonas wrote:
dfan wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with :b1:. We have to run with an ugly :w2:. Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with :b3:, and it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Huh, after :b1: my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. :w2: looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play :w2: means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play :w2: here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?


The 3 stones are cutting stones arent they ? I think that makes them worth rescuing ^_^

Treating those 3 stones as cutting stone are consistent with what shapenaji wants them for (how he likes this position currently), and it now looks like Joaz is coming around to that line of thinking as well. They seem the best use for them especially with the current board position.

Also, I might be just an ~8k, but that feels really bad losing those three stones and allowing black to get all of that.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Uhhh...Shapenaji? You there? You're up.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Sorry for the delay, after that unholy excrement storm of a misunderstanding in that other thread, I figured I'd take a break. Gresil hadn't moved yet.

Approved.
I'm still not sure whether I should have changed this one:

either "a" or "b" is forced,
but "a" may leave better aji later, but it's not necessarily sente... and then the question comes down, would I give them a point for it... I may regret this approval later. But here we go.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 49A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll type up variations and stuff in the next post.
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

I'm worried. This is how I expect things to go and I have no idea whatever how to manage my center group. The white push at E9 looks very powerful if he can get his center group out into the open for a second.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . 5 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll reassess the position after white's next move. I'm trying to not look at these diagrams too much.


I thought my first idea as predicted in my previous move comments would not lead to a good result, as the top black grouplet is short of liberties and :w2: spoils the best shape potential of :b1::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But now, seeing it on the board, it looks fine after all because white's cutting group is very heavy, in much more of a hole than I expected, and unable to immediately threaten the black center group as it is in the first diagram. I would prefer to have played this after all.

The third move I considered:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The circled point looks like a silly thing to play at this point, so I might just as well play J15 next, and if I play J15 I don't need to have played :b1: first.
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Approved.

And if White extends, I'm going to turn down pushing further and play the hanging connection instead. No need to push unnecessarily, and with the fight that is likely to break out, it could do a fair bit more harm than 2 points.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Approved.
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