51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:57 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 4 X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One of my favourite josekis. Obviously, if you want to deviate, don't accept my trigger

Strategy and Thoughts

I like this, taking this corner and giving White a thick group that still has bad aji and is quite hard to develop. Both the top and right are big, and I'm also hoping to hit my invasion at "a" if I can get sente to do so. Timing seems good for it now.

explo · Post by **explo** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:06 pm

A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:26 pm

explo wrote:A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.

Yeah, I'd have played F14, but it didn't feel good for White to me. What continuation would you expect after F14?

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:42 pm

topazg wrote:
$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 4 X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 4 X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pertains to white's next move, so white might not want to read until having made that move:

Etiquette query: Should this have been hidden?

Edit: Briefly this was unhidden, but then I changed my mind.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:52 pm

prokofiev wrote:Shouldn't white block the other way what with D10 and all, or are there considerations I don't know about when there's a double approach (e.g. is blocking this way markedly better locally with the double approach or some such ?)

Etiquette query: Was is okay unhidden or does it come too close to suggesting a move? (In any case I'm weaker than you two, so presumably nothing has been spoiled!)

No, etiquette is fine

I think with :w18:

he's sort of committed himself a bit. Had he contacted the other side, I was still intending on keeping the left, but it's rather better for him at the top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 . X . O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . a . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then I have to decide whether to play "a" and create a big fight, or "b" and almost guarantee sente for an invasion at "c". For example(s):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm25 Move 25 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm25 Move 25 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . 1 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:55 pm

Extra response: Oh, you mean this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 5 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know, this feels to defeat the purpose of pincering. Letting Black connect this way at G17 is really big. White could play for a ko, but I capture first and you know what they say about ko threats in the opening. Who knows, it's up to you White

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:13 pm

topazg wrote:Extra response: Oh, you mean this?

$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X 5 O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 5 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, I jumbled your move sequence in my head and thought blocking at C16 after you entered at 3-3 was available. :oops:

(Furthermore I guess that wouldn't have been white's *next* move in any case.)

That said, isn't there some option to form a wall facing D10? Looking in Kogo's (is this allowed in an open game in which you might not want to use Joseki dictionaries? :lol:

) gives a long variation starting with 4 below to go for influence facing both ways, but maybe that doesn't make sense here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:21 pm

Maybe my real question:

What's the "direction of play" type answer for when you make a double approach, or which reply you choose to a double approach?

Among kyus it seems essentially to be a move that goes for complications rather than a joseki everyone knows and/or a scare-tactic by a stronger player. Among pros (or stronger players who aren't playing the double approach for novelty), when is the double approach chosen instead of the 3-3 (and some similar question about responses). That is: does the double approach give the approacher the ability to choose which side, but at a slight local loss compared to just taking the 3-3 or some such (or am I being overly reductive)?

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:21 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19-22 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts
I've seen this before – I think on Sensei's Library! It starts a huge fight that ends with me getting influence and black getting the corner! I don't remember all the details, but I've got a general idea of how it's supposed to look at the end of the sequence! Since I don't want black to get the corner facing the left side, I will need to start this fight and see if my reading is any good

By the way, topazg, is using joseki dictionaries or Sensei's Library allowed?

explo wrote:A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.

Yes, I thought about that. It might be good for me, but it looks so strange that I thought I'd play something a bit more normal! Maybe I shouldn't have!

The way I know it, black plays :b19:

and I cut through (don't know which side is better). Then the fighting starts!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . X . O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

prokofiev wrote:Shouldn't white block the other way what with D10 and all, or are there considerations I don't know about when there's a double approach (e.g. is blocking this way markedly better locally with the double approach or some such ?)

Etiquette query: Was is okay unhidden or does it come too close to suggesting a move? (In any case I'm weaker than you two, so presumably nothing has been spoiled!)

I was hoping that black would jump into the corner with C17 immediately. That allows me to block at C16, which is the better direction! The way he played it though, I cannot block at C16 unless I ignore G16 which looks pretty awkward.

topazg wrote:I think with he's sort of committed himself a bit. Had he contacted the other side, I was still intending on keeping the left, but it's rather better for him at the top

I thought that contacting the other side hurt my D10 and C6 stone too much. If I hadn't played D10 I could jump into the corner, but I didn't want to leave D10 and C6 alone!

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:25 pm

prokofiev wrote:That said, isn't there some option to form a wall facing D10? Looking in Kogo's (is this allowed in an open game in which you might not want to use Joseki dictionaries? ) gives a long variation starting with 4 below to go for influence facing both ways, but maybe that doesn't make sense here.

Heh, lots of posts while I copy&pasted together diagrams and quotes!
I see you found the sequence that I chose to play! That means I remember it correctly!
Let's see how that turns out!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:37 pm

Hey, minor request: Going forwards, could ya'all please put diagrams into hide tags if they're not actually moves, please? That would make it harder to confuse diagrams under discussion with the actual moves.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:09 am

@Chew: Sure

@Zwergesel: Yeah, dictionary and other references allowed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 23-32 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 7 X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 5 2 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm33 Move 33-42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Move 43-45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X X O O . , . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:09 pm

Thanks for allowing references! This allowed me to identify what I think is a mistake in your sequence!

Let's see ... I follow until move :b35:

, but

goes here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 Move 35+36 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O B B X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O B O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B W B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W W B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactics and Variations

If I don't have a stone at D10 I can't play like this, because of the following tesuji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Black captures first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, with a stone at D10, I can escape that net and then the black stones on top are captured!
Black therefore should have played like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 1 . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This sequence gives me sente which makes it much better for me than what topazg suggested!

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, not as good as I'd hoped, but I'm still happy enough with this for now. I still consider my bottom to be a good enough result that stealing this side leaves me with an advantage. It was a very good choice of top left joseki you made, I'd forgotten all about this one!

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:58 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:Yeah, not as good as I'd hoped, but I'm still happy enough with this for now. I still consider my bottom to be a good enough result that stealing this side leaves me with an advantage. It was a very good choice of top left joseki you made, I'd forgotten all about this one!

Thanks, soon we'll get out of the opening though and my joseki knowledge/references won't help me anymore!
I predict that you'll crush me in the middlegame

Strategy and Thoughts
The solid connection should be best! E12 remains as a forcing move for black, but it isn't a threat! The bamboo joint is the only alternative that I see, but it leaves a potential cut at D11 behind!

Life In 19x19

51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)