Learning strategy "in the fog" feedback

[Jouzer]

Hello, I've been lurking around ever since I begun 3 months ago. Now I felt like posting because I wanted your expert feedback on something I've been doing so far to up my game, since lately it has made me feel worried.

I call it "the fog". Due to circumstances, not having a lot of time etc., so far these three months I've accustomed to not playing that much, only about 1-3 times a week. I do have more time to study problems, read books, review games and so on, so I've been doing that quite a lot all this time. As a result, when I play, I always play a little differently and never quite sure of what to do, because in between games I've always learnt something new but haven't gotten used to the information in the actual games. I do win most of the games though, but thats probably because the KGS rank hangs behind me.

When I came aware of this, I continued sticking with it because, I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I'm hoping this way I will not create so many bad habits and not focus too much on winning games with old tricks but trying to understand the lessons I've studied in between.

However, on the other side of the blade I'm always quite scared to go and play for some reason if I'm not feeling too good, perhaps it's because I don't have a good trust or feel for my current skills. For example now, I could be playing but I'm here writing this and going off to review some dan games.

So I was wondering, if I continue doing this will I ultimately become so scared of playing I won't and drop go or something? Should I just loosen up and play more? Or is this a completely normal or even a seemingly better way to learn Go?

I understand everyone is different and there are no definite answers but I'd just like to get some discussion on the topic.

I know one friend of mine who is very good at fighting for he plays much and studies little and got to SDK with that, but I don't think he can understand the other aspects of go very well and as a result will probably stuck there forever unless he breaks his game. I wouldn't wanna end up there.

[CnP]

Getting actual experience is probably the most important thing for you right now. When I was DDK I read a lot of Go books and they didn't help at all (as far as I could tell - or very inefficiently). Some people might have a different experience to me though. I think you do need to play more games - and you can use rank as a measure of your progress - i.e. if it stops improving you might need to change your routine.

A couple of thoughts:

do you formalise what concepts or ideas you're trying to apply ahead of your games?
do you review the games afterwards?
in studying books, do you fully commit to one book and not just rush through it to get to the next one, or jumping between different books? e.g. pick one book, (e.g. problem book), and decide that's the only book you're picking up until you've finished it.

Oh and unless you're drunk or in desperate need of sleep I wouldn't worry about being in an optimal state.

[Jouzer]

Thanks for the reply!

I only own and study one book at this time "Fundamental Principles of Go", it's probably far ahead of me for its difficult to reach the heureka effect when trying to understand the concepts given, also to actually the remember the said stuff later. However, what I do is just I take notes (as I do with all of my go study methods) and before games and every now and then go back to them, and also reread the chapter in the book. I'm not even halfway through the book though for the reading is quite slow this way, but I don't mind that.

do you formalise what concepts or ideas you're trying to apply ahead of your games?

What I usually do I read my notes before a game, and try to focus on a new point there during the game and then see how it unravels. For example, I have this five finger note about openings "1# Corners #2 Approaches/close to corners other that 4-4 and 3-3 #3 Big, urgent and influental sides 4# Approaches/close 4-4s 5# small sides"
Then I enter the game with this in mind, play it quite slavishly no matter how it feels, and see how it works out and where to deviate etc.

do you review the games afterwards?

This is actually something I need help with. I do review most of the lost games and some interesting/challenging won games, but I don't really know how to gain from it or how to do it properly. I can study other people games, but it takes 1-2 hours to go through a game properly, and if I do it any shorter I find that I gain nothing.
The problem I have is when I look upon my game and realize there's a mistake, play out the variations, I don't know how to make sure I don't do that mistake again. The formations are usually so complicated that staring at them won't burn the image in my mind. Or maybe I do learn from them subliminally, but I'd like to be more efficient about reviewing my own games.

Also when I look at the game unravelling I can see how I could play differently in some situations, but I'm never sure if it's really better or not, because if I had played some big stone elsewhere the game could've gone all different and maybe it would've hurt me more later on.

Any tips or links on how to review your own games would be useful, I have read the SL pages about them but didn't gain much, I think I need more concrete points on what to do there.

I'll start doubling my play for now.

[Bill Spight]

Hello, I've been lurking around ever since I begun 3 months ago. Now I felt like posting because I wanted your expert feedback on something I've been doing so far to up my game, since lately it has made me feel worried.

I call it "the fog". Due to circumstances, not having a lot of time etc., so far these three months I've accustomed to not playing that much, only about 1-3 times a week.

Nothing wrong with that. Before the internet made it easy to get games, a lot of people played about 1-3 times per week.

I do have more time to study problems, read books, review games and so on, so I've been doing that quite a lot all this time. As a result, when I play, I always play a little differently and never quite sure of what to do, because in between games I've always learnt something new but haven't gotten used to the information in the actual games.

That's good. You don't know much, but you know that you don't know much.

I do win most of the games though, but thats probably because the KGS rank hangs behind me.

Not so good. Ideally, you should win around half your games. Maybe you should play unrated games for now. To suggest a handicap, assume that your rank goes up one stone when you win a game, down one stone when you lose. Online rating systems do not keep up with the learning of beginners.

However, on the other side of the blade I'm always quite scared to go and play for some reason if I'm not feeling too good, perhaps it's because I don't have a good trust or feel for my current skills. For example now, I could be playing but I'm here writing this and going off to review some dan games.

So I was wondering, if I continue doing this will I ultimately become so scared of playing I won't and drop go or something? Should I just loosen up and play more? Or is this a completely normal or even a seemingly better way to learn Go?

When I was a kid going to play competitive bridge with adults, I would get nervous and afraid beforehand. What I would do is to review a book for an hour before play. I know of a professional poker player who would do a couple of bridge problems before going to play poker, just to make sure his mind was sharp.

There is nothing wrong with anxiety before playing. In fact. it is an indicator that you are energized. The thing to do is to focus and control that energy. A warmup, such as reviewing a book or doing problems, is a good way to focus.

Good luck!

[Jouzer]

Hey Bill, thanks for giving me a second opinion. I'm glad to hear that it's enough in your opinion, although I will probably play a bit more now but truth be told, I don't think I even want to play 5 games a day like some do (well I can't for one) but also because I rather play a game or two a day when I can, and then really really focus on that game, rather than playing go as a pastime.

Not so good. Ideally, you should win around half your games. Maybe you should play unrated games for now. To suggest a handicap, assume that your rank goes up one stone when you win a game, down one stone when you lose. Online rating systems do not keep up with the learning of beginners.

I do play every week in the club against higher leveled players and mostly always lose, its just on KGS. And honestly, even in KGS, it's not like I don't have to give 110% of my abilities to win. I just played a game against 15k 2 stones handicap, and I won but I had to go all in and beyond to win that game. 7,5 moku ahead, I'm satisfied for the day, and I really need some rest and an aspirin now. But as long as I keep winning, my rating does climb pretty fast. If I really wanted to, I could try to win a few rated games without handicaps against stronger players, but I feel that now that I have a streak going on, I'm working extra hard for my games and the studying also. I just hope I don't hurt myself when I eventually fall on a plateau, haha.


Thanks for the tips, especially the warm up part. I wasn't sure if it was good or bad, like better to empty your mind or warm up but I'll definately try that next time.

[xed_over]

I wonder if you might be suffering a little from what we've come to call OGA (http://senseis.xmp.net/?OnlineGoAnxiety)

[EdLee]

Hi Jouzer,

Getting actual experience is probably the most important thing for you right now.

This.

but I don't really know how to gain from it or how to do it properly.

I don't know how to make sure I don't do that mistake again.

but I'm never sure if it's really better or not

All correct.

This may depend on the individual: some people can study and review by themselves and improve nicely.
Others find that a good teacher can be very helpful.
(I belong to the latter group. )

[Jouzer]

I wonder if you might be suffering a little from what we've come to call OGA (http://senseis.xmp.net/?OnlineGoAnxiety)

Haha that may very well be. I expect nothing from otb games so I dont have this problem there. However, I don't have the other ill effects as of now except for the anxiety, I do play better online I think.

EdLee, someone used to teach me in KGS but I havent bothered him in a while. Maybe I should again for his lessons have always made me better. I wish I could have a real teacher though. Maybe someone at my club will pick me up eventually. :p

[Abyssinica]

I wonder if you might be suffering a little from what we've come to call OGA (http://senseis.xmp.net/?OnlineGoAnxiety)

I only have these when playing ranked; I care too much.

[tamathps]

I'm actually going through the same exact thing right now. Like you, I spend far more time reading/studying Go than playing it. I think this is how I usually approach things though, not just Go. Whether that's bad or not, I don't know.

The bottom line is this is what I like doing though. Maybe I won't improve as fast as just playing a ton of games with my time on KGS (I only am able to get one face to face match a week), but I will enjoy it along the way by instead reading Go books, reviewing games, and doing problems. I know it sounds weird since the basis of all of this is the game of Go, which I prefer to learn about rather than play, haha.

I think for me, as I start to become better at the game, I will start to play more games. Right now, there are many things like what are the proper responses to someone approaching my corner, that I am starting to get the hang of, which makes me feel okay while playing. If I play a game without that knowledge and end up playing bad moves which get punished it makes it not very fun :/ I understand that obviously I won't know all of the correct responses to any position or else I'd already be a pro, but I think my ambition to play games grows progressively as I become better at the game.

I'm not saying you should continue to learn "in the fog" as you say, as many have pointed out, playing games might be the best way to improve. I'm just letting you know you're not the only one out there that's like this!

[DrStraw]

At 17k you will learn far more by playing than by studying. Some reading is appropriate for DDKs but until you get to SDK you should definitely be playing more than studying. My suggestion it to not worry about rated games. If you lose a few, so what? Rank is only a measure of what you know and if the former lags the latter then it is not a big deal. It will eventually catch up.

[Jouzer]

tamathps;
Glad to hear. Ultimately, the most important thing as said by many is to enjoy Go and for me not to get bored, so at the end of the day we should progress in the way and in the time we're comfortable with. It seems to be the consensus though that playing games is the fastest way to improve.
However, whenever I do some studying I see the change for the better in my play, so that's definately fun and can't hurt I imagine.

DrStraw, you do have a good point in not worrying about rank. It's not very sensible to care about that right now I guess.

[LarryHH]

Jouzer, at 16 Kyu, I would recommend a 13x13 board to complete more games rather than a full board. Play someone stronger who will tell you their strategy and show you where you could have played better moves as you play. At 10 Kyu switch to a 19x19 board. Reading ability. Timing. Strategy.

[Jouzer]

Well so far this new play more and 13x13 games and fast paced games has lead me to 6 consecutive losses and dropping down two stones. Also for the first time I feel like I've hit an obstacle, I just can't seem to learn from my mistakes. Also I developed a habit of instinctively playing a bad stone as if I was low on time even when I'm not playing a fast paced game. Aaaand my atari blindness remanifested.

Haha looks like its time to break my game and just keep studying the way what's got me this far. On the brighter side, I don't need to worry about winning anymore and I can just let the rank dive down. It'll get up when I'm back on the saddle again.

Definately playing less worked for me, getting too used to the game and my skillset numbed me. I'm playing at my ability, not beyond it as I used to.

Well thanks for the tips anyway, I'll get better now.

[EdLee]

dropping down two stones.

At these levels, the ratings are very fluid (read: highly in-accurate ).

Just continue to play, play, and play.