Hiding your clock from your opponent

[lemmata]

I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.

Perhaps it was not clear, but my advice was that if you are playing a game casually (i.e., the outcome matters little to you) against friendly opponents, then perhaps losing because of a complicated fight created by your opponent in byo-yomi is not a situation that should distress you in the slightest. Just enjoy the review and move on.

It seems that your complaint has little to do with the friendliness or casualness of the game and a lot to do with your personal preference for how time is used by your opponent. After all, a friendly person playing a casual game may decide that he wants to use time pressure as a weapon. If it really is matter of personal preference (i.e., what kind of games you enjoy most), then I highly recommend a fantastic server called OGS where your opponents will find it nearly impossible to use time-attack tactics against you. I don't mean to poo-poo your feature suggestion, but it is clearly a very low priority issue for most people, so you may just have better luck playing turn-based games instead of hoping that KGS implements clock-hiding.

[walleye]

This is simple arithmetic you can do in your head. Or just estimate (he's probably taken about a minute longer than I have). It doesn't require somebody to have a ing timer on their desk that they press every move, just a clock already being displayed on their monitor.

So now I know when you're in byomi but you don't know when I am. I've got an advantage. You haven't made time irrelevant, you've just turned time estimation into a new skill I can use in a game. Most of us don't want to compete in 'who's keeping better track of time' while playing go, so we prefer that the clocks are just seen.

I doubt you'll be able to do that easily if Fischer or Canadian timing is used. Most people won't bother doing it regardless of the timing system. As for advantages, if you want to cheat, there are much better ways of doing that than counting the time remaining. In my experience, most people don't cheat even when it's relatively easy.

Yes, if I'm in 10 second sudden death, I believe time is an important part of the game. If you don't want time to get in the way, why use such tight time controls that it matters? The fact that I lose if I click a move a second late sounds much more like time getting in the way then knowing my opponents clock.

I'm not proposing that you hide your own clock. The clock helps you manage the time you've got, while keeping a certain pace. It's necessary because it puts some limit on how long a game can last and sets the pace.

It seems that your complaint has little to do with the friendliness or casualness of the game and a lot to do with your personal preference for how time is used by your opponent. After all, a friendly person playing a casual game may decide that he wants to use time pressure as a weapon. If it really is matter of personal preference (i.e., what kind of games you enjoy most), then I highly recommend a fantastic server called OGS where your opponents will find it nearly impossible to use time-attack tactics against you. I don't mean to poo-poo your feature suggestion, but it is clearly a very low priority issue for most people, so you may just have better luck playing turn-based games instead of hoping that KGS implements clock-hiding.

I don't have any personal issues I'd like to resolve with the option we're discussing. I simply make an observation that seeing the opponent's clock is not necessary for playing the game. If it is visible, it can be used to inform strategy in certain circumstances. This may be seen as interference. If neither player can see the opponent's clock, this possibility is removed.

[dankenzon]

I really find funny this conversation comes in the Go Community.

I used to play a lot in chess tournaments and there is well know that the clock is part of the logistic and organization and it is ridiculous to think of hiding the time.

Any player should be able to see each other's clock.

[oren]

I really find funny this conversation comes in the Go Community.

I don't think more than one person really finds this an interesting option. I imagine there are one or two people in chess who might find this option kind of fun too.

[Polama]

I doubt you'll be able to do that easily if Fischer or Canadian timing is used.

It's not bad if we don't remove move # as well. Fischer is just multiplication, wait until you're on a multiple of ten to calculate. Canadian requires you to be precise at noting when main time runs out, but then the move number is all you need to know when they've got the least available time.

Most people won't bother doing it regardless of the timing system. As for advantages, if you want to cheat, there are much better ways of doing that than counting the time remaining. In my experience, most people don't cheat even when it's relatively easy.

I didn't realize this would be cheating. Am I allowed to estimate how long my opponent is taking or is that against this rule as well? If I happen to notice we start a game on an hour sharp, and accidently note the time later in the game, do I have to resign, or is informing my opponent enough?

It just strikes me as very strange to institute a rule that says "yes, you have all the information available to you to determine the opponents time, but you are forbidden to do so." Especially into a game that previously had no rules that involved determing the player's intent or internal knowledge.

[walleye]

It just strikes me as very strange to institute a rule that says "yes, you have all the information available to you to determine the opponents time, but you are forbidden to do so." Especially into a game that previously had no rules that involved determing the player's intent or internal knowledge.

I guess my idea was to try and minimise the effect of the clock on casual games played on a server to make them more like club games played without clocks. Time remaining is not really an issue for club games, except for same vague limit depending on when people have to leave. I was thinking of a way to make the time less of an issue on the servers.

I used to play a lot in chess tournaments and there is well know that the clock is part of the logistic and organization and it is ridiculous to think of hiding the time.

I wasn't talking about tournaments, just casual games. It is not ridiculous to play a casual game without a clock. On a server, a clock is unavoidable unless you play with someone you know personally. If the players couldn't see their opponent's remaining time, it would I thought make the game a bit more like a casual club game.

You say the players should be able to see each other's clock. But surely they would still be able to play the game even if they couldn't. Being able to see each other's clock is a convention. Everyone is used to it. But it's not a necessity, just a custom. Imagine that the custom was different. Imagine that every tournament required the opponent's clock to be hidden. Every game server would replicate this custom. Then someone comes along and suggests that the games are played with the open clocks. It would seem strage and ridiculous too.

Still, I'm not really talking about changing any customs. I'm not saying anyone should change the way they play. All I was suggesting was a little option to make it possible to play a game when the players couldn't see the opponent's clock. Perhaps it's too radical a proposition.

[Mef]

It just strikes me as very strange to institute a rule that says "yes, you have all the information available to you to determine the opponents time, but you are forbidden to do so." Especially into a game that previously had no rules that involved determing the player's intent or internal knowledge.

I guess my idea was to try and minimise the effect of the clock on casual games played on a server to make them more like club games played without clocks. Time remaining is not really an issue for club games, except for same vague limit depending on when people have to leave. I was thinking of a way to make the time less of an issue on the servers.

I think the simpler solution would be to play your online games with no clock. Many servers already support this.

[Mike Novack]

I think the simpler solution would be to play your online games with no clock. Many servers already support this.

I believe that probably all servers support this in the practical sense. It doesn't require an explicit option of "no clock", just the absence of limits on how high the numbers entered can be. Thus "blitz" becomes (in effect) "no clock" if instead of 10 sec per move 1000 seconds per move.

[Polama]

Still, I'm not really talking about changing any customs. I'm not saying anyone should change the way they play. All I was suggesting was a little option to make it possible to play a game when the players couldn't see the opponent's clock. Perhaps it's too radical a proposition.

I think it was only controversial because comparing the two approaches has been an interesting discussion, and because if it was implemented, everybody would have to interact with it, either going through game invitations actively avoiding it, or getting used to playing with it on occasion. As you say, it's certainly possible to play this way, and nobody here should object if you wanted to do this at your local club, it's just adding the option to a popular go server that rose vocal objections.

I think there's a philosophical difference at the root of the disagreement, and I wonder if you agree? "Playing to Win" (very short book the author put online for free) puts it better than I can, but basically there's a philosophy that you should try your hardest to win at games. You don't need to be a jerk, you certainly don't cheat, but that one way to get a lot out of a game is to try to master it. The rules set the boundaries, and you find the best possible way to interact with those rules. Under that philosophy, our ranks are measuring sticks, and you try your hardest to get them as high as you can.

The contrasting view is that ranks are there to find us even matches, that you should just try to have fun and who cares if your 3rd kyu or 30th?

If you subscribe to the 'playing to win' philosophy, then everything within the rules is part of the game, and should be mastered. That means that timesuji and playing complexities when time is low is part of the game, and should be embraced and mastered. You should strive to play correct moves faster, you should use time against your opponent, because it's part of the game. "Playing to win" doesn't differentiate between a fair victory and a cheap victory, just a legal victory and a cheating one.

If you approach the question of clocks from that standpoint, hiding the clock doesn't remove it from influencing gameplay. You can still measure or approximate how much time has passed. So instead of removing time as a weapon, it makes time a harder to use weapon. But if you're setting out to master the game, you don't avoid hard to use weapons, those are another edge you can obtain. So now using time against your opponent is one skill, and estimating time is a second skill, and you try to master both. Playing to win, you might be less invested in a casual game than a tournament, you might be more open to experimentation, but you're still trying to do your best.

So under one philosophy, by making this information harder, you've made time less important. But in the other philosophy, time is no less important, you're just being measured against one additional yardstick. If that was how Go was played, I'd learn to estimate time better, but my preference is that it doesn't become a go skill.

[lemmata]

I don't have any personal issues I'd like to resolve with the option we're discussing. I simply make an observation that seeing the opponent's clock is not necessary for playing the game. If it is visible, it can be used to inform strategy in certain circumstances. This may be seen as interference. If neither player can see the opponent's clock, this possibility is removed.

I think that it has already been made clear that you can get the results you desire by using the existing feature sets of various servers. You can

1. play turn-based games;
2. play with larger main-time;
3. play with long byo-yomi periods.

As such, the discussion itself is quite moot now. Also, I must note that I used the term "personal preference" not "personal issues". I do not attribute any psychological issues to you but instead attribute different personal tastes (i.e., preferences, what you enjoy more/less).

I might otherwise argue the point further, but I think that you now have enough information here to find the kind of games you want without waiting for a server to implement this feature. I know it isn't accomplished by hiding the clock, but if you can get games where remaining time cannot be "used to inform strategy" in other ways, does it matter how it happens?

I was almost certain that you would be quite satisfied after the discovery of these options. Perhaps you are and just haven't had the time to express your satisfaction yet.

[Boidhre]

If you're using Fischer (some tournaments do)...

Fischer is pretty straightforward:

Initial time + (moves they played x increment) - (time elapsed - time I've used))

Time I've used = Initial time + moves I've played x increment - time remaining.

Any system where you can lose extra time (byo-yomi, Canadian, Bronstein, etc) would be impossible though

Sorry for the last reply Mef. You're right Fischer is straight-forward and calculable, my point was about working out whether your opponent was in "overtime" in byo vs Fischer.

Byo: They're in overtime if time elapsed is greater than your time spent + main time (easy to calculate since you just compare your time spent to elapsed time - main time). This will take seconds because the number you are subtracting your time from is always the same one and you're only ever substracting what's on your clock.

Fischer: You need to recalculate your time and your opponents time every time you need to work this out. If 10s x 147 + 40 minutes is greater than 10s x 146 + 40 minutes + time elapsed is going to be much more error prone.

More problematically, someone's time on the clock can increase in Fischer which is what I meant by not calculable. Someone might have been in overtime but unless you're counting seconds on their move you're not going to know whether how much time they have each move in the end game. Granted it's possible for someone to do this accurately and have a good enough memory to keep their opponent time spent on their last move in their head but I can't imagine it'd be good for your go.

Edit: Sorry, I'm making no sense. I mean, you can figure out if someone has gone into byo easily enough and once they're there they stay there. With Fischer once they go into increment only you still have to calculate each round or every five rounds because they could come back out of increment and build some more time back up on the clock. Both the calculation is more intensive and you still need to keep doing it during the late game when you yourself could be under time pressure whereas with byo this isn't an issue.

[mbv]

For what it's worth, I never try to rush my opponent or abuse how much time they have left. Although I also don't play very often, but when I do, I play for 30-40 minutes on IGS, where my opponents are generally quicker than me .

Anyway I think this might be an amusing way to play once or twice but I imagine the novelty would wear off. And it's probably too much effort for anyone to program into a server.

[hyperpape]

Seriously people, drop it! Walleye is not basing the security of our banking system on whether people can calculate your remaining time, so it really doesn't have to be perfect.

The point is that if this were instituted, most people would not think to try and remember how much time their opponent had. And if you were using Fischer or Canadian then the ones who would try would end up distracting themselves enough to make it not worth their while.

[Polama]

The point is that if this were instituted, most people would not think to try and remember how much time their opponent had. And if you were using Fischer or Canadian then the ones who would try would end up distracting themselves enough to make it not worth their while.

You can also guess this by the changes in their play speed, the playing of timesuji, if you're in person by their posture and actions. You could also try to give fake signals about your clock, acting like you're harried as soon as you start a Canadian byomi period.

I still maintain that once you introduce information asymmetries, they becomes part of the game.

[walleye]

I might otherwise argue the point further, but I think that you now have enough information here to find the kind of games you want without waiting for a server to implement this feature. I know it isn't accomplished by hiding the clock, but if you can get games where remaining time cannot be "used to inform strategy" in other ways, does it matter how it happens?

I was almost certain that you would be quite satisfied after the discovery of these options. Perhaps you are and just haven't had the time to express your satisfaction yet.

I started this thread to discuss an idea I had. I accepted what I was given without question like everybody else. Then it occurred to me that things could be different. I wanted to know what other people thought about it.

I never meant to discuss my personal preferences or how I could satisfy them. I'm certainly not waiting for any server to implement the feature. If I'm dissatisfied with the existing servers, it's not because they let the player's see each other's clock, but rather things like voiced countdown and so on. But again, this thread is not about that.