I have just bought a book called: Mastery PLay, The territorial styles of Kitani Minoru & Cho Chikun By Yuan Zhou.
I decided to start playing more territorial games since I couldn't cope with enemy invasions and bad aji in shapes.
This is the first game I played after studying only a section of the book. Would anyone care to share their opinions. My honest opinion about this game is not so good.
I wasn't able to hold strong groups for very long, at the end white falls apart.
Thank you.
Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
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mitsun
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
You played a nice game until the very late loss of a big group. However, this does not look much like a territorial game (at least from the W side).
aims for influence not territory. E3 or P3 would be territorial.
is a good move, but not territorial. C16 or R8 would be territorial.
is a good move, but not territorial. C16 or R8 would be territorial.
If you really want to try a more territorial style, consider chasing enemy groups with a little persistence. Be willing to break off an inconclusive attack to take real profit.
aims for influence not territory. E3 or P3 would be territorial. is a good move, but not territorial. C16 or R8 would be territorial. is a good move, but not territorial. C16 or R8 would be territorial.If you really want to try a more territorial style, consider chasing enemy groups with a little persistence. Be willing to break off an inconclusive attack to take real profit.
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skydyr
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
Some thoughts on white:
Move 4: Mukai Komoku (the two white stones here) is a formation that has been advocated as advantageous to white by Go Seigen, among others. One of the issues with it, though, is that if black ignores the corners to take big side points, white corner formations end up pointing to the same sides that black wants to take. That said, it may be simpler to play the second 3-4 stone in a rotated manner, as at D3, if you are going for a territorial game. You could also consider a hoshi stone here, to prevent the opponent's advantageous approach there, but it is less territorial.
Move 10: ??? What is the purpose of this move? It develops in the wrong direction, being both on the smaller side and on the opposite side from white's natural development from the 3-4 stone.
Move 12: With this high stone, a black wedge on the bottom side has a great followup against both corners.
Move 13: Weird.
Move 14: My initial instinct is that I like this move, but it does still have the black wedge problem. On the other hand, black's move 13 now looks pretty pointless. In tewari, he certainly wouldn't approach the corner formation there, and if he did, a white extension to threaten to cut him off makes good sense.
Move 51: At this point, it looks like black is playing the territorial game and white is looking to fight. White has a good attack going, but letting black hane at the head of two is painful. A peep at J10 looks quite sente and helpful.
Move 72: Why not strengthen yourself with M16 and leave black in gote?
Move 82: Doing something here is the right idea, but white's goal should be attacking the two black stones. Instead, by attaching, white strengthens them and lets his wall go to waste.
Move 122: Starting this fight was great for white, but white's 5 stones have become weaker and weaker. Earlier black should have perhaps just jumped out with F12, and now, black can end it by laddering them at G13.
Overall, I think one of the main issues is that white played a few odd moves early on and ended with a more influence oriented structure, and building an attack, but then tried to directly make territory from thickness, or otherwise failed to attack weak groups effectively.
I read the same book at approximately the same point in development as you, and gained significant strength from it, but in retrospect I think it was because I learned what territory-orientedness wasn't (something to look for to the exclusion of all else) and because I picked up a better sense of kiai and making sure that if your opponent got something big, you got something big too, even if it meant not answering locally.
Move 4: Mukai Komoku (the two white stones here) is a formation that has been advocated as advantageous to white by Go Seigen, among others. One of the issues with it, though, is that if black ignores the corners to take big side points, white corner formations end up pointing to the same sides that black wants to take. That said, it may be simpler to play the second 3-4 stone in a rotated manner, as at D3, if you are going for a territorial game. You could also consider a hoshi stone here, to prevent the opponent's advantageous approach there, but it is less territorial.
Move 10: ??? What is the purpose of this move? It develops in the wrong direction, being both on the smaller side and on the opposite side from white's natural development from the 3-4 stone.
Move 12: With this high stone, a black wedge on the bottom side has a great followup against both corners.
Move 13: Weird.
Move 14: My initial instinct is that I like this move, but it does still have the black wedge problem. On the other hand, black's move 13 now looks pretty pointless. In tewari, he certainly wouldn't approach the corner formation there, and if he did, a white extension to threaten to cut him off makes good sense.
Move 51: At this point, it looks like black is playing the territorial game and white is looking to fight. White has a good attack going, but letting black hane at the head of two is painful. A peep at J10 looks quite sente and helpful.
Move 72: Why not strengthen yourself with M16 and leave black in gote?
Move 82: Doing something here is the right idea, but white's goal should be attacking the two black stones. Instead, by attaching, white strengthens them and lets his wall go to waste.
Move 122: Starting this fight was great for white, but white's 5 stones have become weaker and weaker. Earlier black should have perhaps just jumped out with F12, and now, black can end it by laddering them at G13.
Overall, I think one of the main issues is that white played a few odd moves early on and ended with a more influence oriented structure, and building an attack, but then tried to directly make territory from thickness, or otherwise failed to attack weak groups effectively.
I read the same book at approximately the same point in development as you, and gained significant strength from it, but in retrospect I think it was because I learned what territory-orientedness wasn't (something to look for to the exclusion of all else) and because I picked up a better sense of kiai and making sure that if your opponent got something big, you got something big too, even if it meant not answering locally.
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Krama
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
Thank you both for comments, I now see that this style of play could perhaps be just out of my league. I will read the rest of the book and perhaps try to analyze some other games of Kitani and Cho.
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skydyr
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
Krama wrote:Thank you both for comments, I now see that this style of play could perhaps be just out of my league. I will read the rest of the book and perhaps try to analyze some other games of Kitani and Cho.
I wouldn't say that in the least. It's quite possible for you to play this way in a manner consistent with your level.
A few things to consider would be:
- 3rd line moves are territorial, 4th line moves are influential. Just make sure that you have enough influence to keep your opponent from dominating the rest of the game.
- The idea behind playing territorially is that you exploit advantages early on in a way that give you solid points and by extension, footing, rather than looking forward to a future attack as much.
- If you have a solid foothold in an area, like a peeped skirt or somesuch, you don't need to be as aggressive about invading, and can just reduce calmly. Invasions are for using influence or making the influence your opponent gains overconcentrated. Reductions are to keep him from getting too big. That said, if your opponent make a giant moyo, you may need to invade and live to keep it in check. Your goal is to not let your opponent solidify enough points by attacking you that he surpasses your territory.
- Setting up strong positions looks to win the game on endgame, when you can make lots of sente reductions and such, and your opponent hasn't been able to attack your positions or make enough solid points on their own. As a loose guideline, if you have about 60 points in cash, you have enough and should consider working on reducing your opponent instead of making more.
In general, either you and your opponent will be racing for territory, in which case your selection of big points, doing things in sente, etc. will win the game in endgame, or your opponent will have lots of potential to your settled territory, and the game will be about them trying to turn the potential into more than you have, vs. your trying to keep that from happening.
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Krama
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
The struggle with me as you could see in the game is that I used to play influence games. I would build up a huge moyo every time, attempt to get it all. Then when opponent would invade I would just look at my precious potential getting eaten away. It frustrated me so much that I didn't want to look at how to improve my influential style but to switch to something more solid. Just by watching the game of Kitani Minoru vs Honinbo guy made me so excited. How he plays calmly and solidly.. not having to worry about aji or enemy invading.. and simply eating away opponents territory. This is how I would like to play go, however something inside tells me to still play influence games, and fight, fight beyond comprehension.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
Krama wrote:The struggle with me as you could see in the game is that I used to play influence games. I would build up a huge moyo every time, attempt to get it all. Then when opponent would invade I would just look at my precious potential getting eaten away. It frustrated me so much that I didn't want to look at how to improve my influential style but to switch to something more solid. Just by watching the game of Kitani Minoru vs Honinbo guy made me so excited. How he plays calmly and solidly.. not having to worry about aji or enemy invading.. and simply eating away opponents territory. This is how I would like to play go, however something inside tells me to still play influence games, and fight, fight beyond comprehension.
You kind have to take into account that most of these players are playing with their second and tertiary agendas, because their opponents are frustrating their primary goals. I like to play a territorial game, but more often than not my opponent is hip to it and gives up a moyo or influence, occasionally thickness instead not my forte, but playable nonetheless.
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LarryHH
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
Krama,
W4 facing 3-4 stones. Did you plan to make two corner enclosures AND extend to the side for a large framework? No? Expect black to approach or reduce or make a base.
W36, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, your splitting strategy. Did you capture any of black's groups? Did you make a large territory while chasing those groups?
W72 ? direction of play?
W106, 108 ?? There are bigger moves, sente moves, and much better moves. Before launching that attack did you consider S4, K3, O7 ? P18, H18, C15 ?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheTenGoldenRulesList
W4 facing 3-4 stones. Did you plan to make two corner enclosures AND extend to the side for a large framework? No? Expect black to approach or reduce or make a base.
W36, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, your splitting strategy. Did you capture any of black's groups? Did you make a large territory while chasing those groups?
W72 ? direction of play?
W106, 108 ?? There are bigger moves, sente moves, and much better moves. Before launching that attack did you consider S4, K3, O7 ? P18, H18, C15 ?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheTenGoldenRulesList
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ez4u
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
If it were me, I would be tempted to take the corner with 42. In the game, White cut off the N5 stone but Black's hane at L2 seemed to disrupt White's intended territorial game.
Having a territorial strategy is one thing, but tactics can demand a different response along the way. White should have responded to Black 47 with the hane below. White is too strong here, Black's five stones can't escape.
Having a territorial strategy is one thing, but tactics can demand a different response along the way. White should have responded to Black 47 with the hane below. White is too strong here, Black's five stones can't escape.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Krama
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
ez4u wrote:If it were me, I would be tempted to take the corner with 42. In the game, White cut off the N5 stone but Black's hane at L2 seemed to disrupt White's intended territorial game.
Having a territorial strategy is one thing, but tactics can demand a different response along the way. White should have responded to Black 47 with the hane below. White is too strong here, Black's five stones can't escape.
I did consider the hane but with some quick reading I figured he could crawl out using the multiple atari tricks and that it wouldn't be good for me.
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ez4u
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
A (the?) key point here is that Black's diagonal play at H8 means that Black is also subject to atari. It is fairly easy to read out that Black is going nowhere. Hmmm, ... well almost! 
Dave Sigaty
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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Krama
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
ez4u, thanks for the diagrams. I was actually able to read out the second last diagram but not the last one. I simply can't read that far yet. That is why I thought I saw a way that black can escape (with that atari) but failed to see that you can simply counter atari and give that one stone away.
I am so ashamed right now
I guess I should drop the theory books and stop playing for a while, while doing only tsumego. I need to improve my reading.
I am so ashamed right now
I guess I should drop the theory books and stop playing for a while, while doing only tsumego. I need to improve my reading.
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EdLee
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Dropping the theory books for now is OK.Krama wrote:I guess I should drop the theory books and stop playing for a while, while doing only tsumego. I need to improve my reading.
Stop playing is not OK. If you want to improve your reading,
then it's important to include playing as part of your training.
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Krama
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Re: Territorial style 7 kyu game review.
I guess I should just drop the theory books for now, however for improving reading do you people think I should be playing longer games (30 minutes at least per player) or is playing blitz (pure byo-yomi) games better?
Some say one thing, other say the opposite.
Some say one thing, other say the opposite.
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EdLee
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Hi Krama, welcome to crowd-sourcing opinions.Krama wrote:Some say one thing, other say the opposite.
At least three factors are at play here:
- Some people know what they're talking about.
- Some people don't.
- Many things depend on the individual: what works for one person may be a disaster for another.
One needs to learn to figure out who (and what) to listen to (important when looking for a teacher).
One needs a good eye.