Tsumego Pro Easy Problem 17

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:42 am

This is a problem from an Android Tsumego app...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O . | $$ . X . . . . | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . . | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

My solution started like this...

But the app responded like this, saying I was wrong...

But I think that this should now happen...

Where have I gone wrong?

Aside: Why is there no "Problems" subforum and what is up with "Beginners" and "Amateurs" - after a slight holiday from L19, these things do strike you when you return.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:59 am

You are right !

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:06 am

Cassandra wrote:You are right !

Agree, your solution seems valid. I lazily read as solution a placement at T17, but why do it so complicated

?

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:49 am

I thought so.

I always prefer to play on the outside of a group like this, even if a placement or throw-in does work.

EDIT: I can't seem to find a problem-feedback option in the app. Does the dev. read L19?

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:18 pm

It might be preferable to play 3 @ R17.

Playing from the outside is always better than doing so from the inside, if both options do the job.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:09 pm

Cassandra wrote:It might be preferable to play 3 @ R17.

Playing from the outside is always better than doing so from the inside, if both options do the job.

Agree, the placement was my first try, then I read the proposed solution. I'm usually guilty of finding a solution (or a wat to proceed) and sticking to it without looking further. An area I try to improve

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:22 pm

Charlie wrote:This is a problem from an Android Tsumego app...

$$Bc Black to play
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O . |
$$ . X . . . . |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O . . |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O . | $$ . X . . . . | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . . | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]
My solution started like this...

$$Bc My first move
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O . |
$$ . X 1 . . . |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O . . |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc My first move $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O . | $$ . X 1 . . . | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . . | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]
But the app responded like this, saying I was wrong...

$$Bc Tsumego Pro's rebuttal
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O . |
$$ . X 1 . . . |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O . 2 |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Tsumego Pro's rebuttal $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O . | $$ . X 1 . . . | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . 2 | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]
But I think that this should now happen...

$$Bc Miai
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O 3 |
$$ . X 1 5 T 4 |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O T 2 |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Miai $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 3 | $$ . X 1 5 T 4 | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O T 2 | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

$$Bc Death in Sente
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O 3 |
$$ . X 1 4 . 5 |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O . 2 |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Death in Sente $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 3 | $$ . X 1 4 . 5 | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . 2 | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

$$Bc Death in Sente
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O 3 |
$$ . X 1 . 4 5 |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O . 2 |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Death in Sente $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 3 | $$ . X 1 . 4 5 | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O . 2 | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

$$Bc Death in Sente
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O 3 |
$$ . X 1 . . 5 |
$$ . . X O O . |
$$ . X . O 4 2 |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Death in Sente $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 3 | $$ . X 1 . . 5 | $$ . . X O O . | $$ . X . O 4 2 | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]
Where have I gone wrong?

Where did you go wrong? Hmmm. Maybe buying that app?

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:33 pm

Bill Spight wrote: Where did you go wrong? Hmmm. Maybe buying that app?

Perhaps it's "Black to let white live with points."

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:31 pm

Bill Spight wrote: Where did you go wrong? Hmmm. Maybe buying that app?

It's a free app.

Based on this discussion, I won't buy any problem sets once I have finished the free ones.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:59 pm

RBerenguel wrote:
Cassandra wrote:You are right !
Agree, your solution seems valid. I lazily read as solution a placement at T17, but why do it so complicated ?

You probably had the same (overly) trained reflex to that potential eyeshape that I have, I saw T17 instantly. The difference was probably that Charlie focused on a different critical point in that shape. The solutions seem equivalent to me really, White can take sente and leave a ko threat for themselves behind in either case.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:07 pm

What did the app give as the correct solution? There is no lack of amateur tsumego problems with more than one solution.

Drew · Post by **Drew** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:30 pm

ez4u wrote:What did the app give as the correct solution? There is no lack of amateur tsumego problems with more than one solution.

The app provides this solution:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tsumego Easy #17 $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 5 | $$ . X 1 2 . 3 | $$ . . X O O 4 | $$ . X . O . . | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:49 am

Drew wrote:
ez4u wrote:What did the app give as the correct solution? There is no lack of amateur tsumego problems with more than one solution.
The app provides this solution:
$$Bc Tsumego Easy #17
$$ ------------+
$$ . . X . O . |
$$ . X O O O 5 |
$$ . X 1 2 . 3 |
$$ . . X O O 4 |
$$ . X . O . . |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Tsumego Easy #17 $$ ------------+ $$ . . X . O . | $$ . X O O O 5 | $$ . X 1 2 . 3 | $$ . . X O O 4 | $$ . X . O . . | $$ . . X X X X | $$ . . . . . . |[/go]

This would be why I prefer apps that play out White's moves here, rather than just marking something as incorrect just because your move for White isn't the programs. Of course, apps with more than one variation for White in response to the same starting move are better, just to make sure you actually read things out.

Edit: I mean, if Charlie was presented with

then

above by the program he'd have no problem finding

and

and he wouldn't be finding the problem marked wrong for him. He might disagree with

but that's where you just confirm again that your

also doesn't change the result. In this case there's only ever one eye in there after

regardless of what white does so it's much of a muchness. In sdk/strong ddk problems there's often alternative answers but usually the book answer is better in terms of endgame, sente or ko threats or whatever.

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