Hiding your clock from your opponent

[̄̄̄̄]

A mode where both players time is hidden could be fun. Am I in byo-yomi? Is my opponent? Nobody knows!

[Mike Novack]

But we should at least be clear about what is being requested.

a) A change to provide a mode where it would not be trivial to know the opponent's time status or the opponent know yours. Please note the way I have worded that. If you would not be satisfied unless the change made it impossible for your opponent to know your time status you can't have that change because impossible. <<the opponent knows the time at he moved (start of you using your time) and when you next move (end of your move interval) so whether the server program or the client program used provides that information to him he could have something else that did <<like a go clock and he hits the buttons -- how could any programming changes prevent him form having a go clock sitting next to him>>.

b) Serves don't function alone. The other end is a client. You wouldn't need to change the server program; a change to the client program could hide the information even though the server sending it. I understand, you wouldn't trust that since your opponent could be using a version of the client that didn't or just have turned "hide mode" off. Well yes, but he could also have a go clock sitting beside him.

The point I am making is that you can't really have this option. What you can have is that you don't have access to the opponents time status <<but not that he can't have access to yours>> However just that doesn't require any programming changes, simply avert your eyes.

[walleye]

However, the reason you claim to desire this option is so that your opponent is less likely to beat you with time-based tactics.

If it is really just for purpose of building a casual clubby atmosphere...

It really is the other way around. My train of thought was if this option is employed, what effect on the game it will have. Well, if the players can't see each other's clocks, then they are less likely to use time-based tactics against each other. Will the game be more like a club game? People can't use time-based tactics in a casual club game because they play without a clock. So, if you prevent time-based tactics on a server, then the conclusion is that it will be more like a casual club game in that sense. Is this a good thing? It depends. Will this option build a casual clubby atmosphere on a server? I doubt it.

As for reasons, I prefer to have a choice. The reason we don't have the choice now is historical as far as I can see. It makes sense to show both clocks on a game server if you treat the games like tournament games. But a lot of people play for fun. In this case, whether they can see each other's clocks or not should really be up to the players in my opinion.

Part of why I see this exercise as being strange is because this option is really about controlling how others play, which I am not really interested in doing.

You control how others play every time you select a particular time setting for the game. Even if the game is casual, you have to make some choice about how long the game will last, which also sets an average pace. Surely, this will effect how your opponent plays.

[walleye]

how could any programming changes prevent him form having a go clock sitting next to him

I can't stop someone from using a 5 dan bot either. But in my experience most people don't cheat, so I'm not worried about that at all. If you can tally my time in your head, then more power to you. But if you are using some device to do that even though you agreed not to, then you are cheating. I can't stop people from cheating. But, in this particular case, I do very seriously doubt anyone will bother to cheat that way.

[Mike Novack]

You are missing my point?

The proposal was not for "could we have an agreement by which we do not look at each others time?" It was "could we have an option whereby I could hide my time from my opponent?". Those are not the same thing.

The first would not require a change to the server program. Agreement to use a modified version of the client would do, or even a bit of sticky on the screen blocking where opponents time is displayed. Or even just choosing not to look at the opponents time.

[Mef]

a) A change to provide a mode where it would not be trivial to know the opponent's time status or the opponent know yours. Please note the way I have worded that. If you would not be satisfied unless the change made it impossible for your opponent to know your time status you can't have that change because impossible. <<the opponent knows the time at he moved (start of you using your time) and when you next move (end of your move interval) so whether the server program or the client program used provides that information to him he could have something else that did <<like a go clock and he hits the buttons -- how could any programming changes prevent him form having a go clock sitting next to him>>.

Actually, if the server waited some random amount of time before sending the move to the other opponent then you could have a way for it to be impossible to know your opponent's time remaining.

The server could keep accurate clocks for both players, but neither player would know how much time their opponent used vs how much "dead time" the server has added.

[Mike Novack]

Actually, if the server waited some random amount of time before sending the move to the other opponent then you could have a way for it to be impossible to know your opponent's time remaining.

The server could keep accurate clocks for both players, but neither player would know how much time their opponent used vs how much "dead time" the server has added.

That would work (to hide the amount of time the opponent used). However it would unavoidably add time to you since the server could not start your time until the move was made. Of course just time where you don't (yet) know what exactly move the opponent is going to make, but still, that is useful thinking time, especially when the real choice is going to be between just a few moves. Similarly the opponent get an equivalent addition to time (it is fair in that regard; both get the same additional time to think)

If you don't understand what I am saying, picture that the random times being added were usually quite large compared to the actual time. How would this affect the game?

[Mef]

Actually, if the server waited some random amount of time before sending the move to the other opponent then you could have a way for it to be impossible to know your opponent's time remaining.

The server could keep accurate clocks for both players, but neither player would know how much time their opponent used vs how much "dead time" the server has added.

That would work (to hide the amount of time the opponent used). However it would unavoidably add time to you since the server could not start your time until the move was made. Of course just time where you don't (yet) know what exactly move the opponent is going to make, but still, that is useful thinking time, especially when the real choice is going to be between just a few moves. Similarly the opponent get an equivalent addition to time (it is fair in that regard; both get the same additional time to think)

If you don't understand what I am saying, picture that the random times being added were usually quite large compared to the actual time. How would this affect the game?

Oh, I understand that it will make the game longer (since the dead time must be accounted for somewhere)...The overall effect of this time though should be quite balanced, and both players will see an identical amount of overall dead-time, and both will see it in the same way (as if the opponent is taking longer to move). The main point I am saying is that it is quite possible to implement a scheme where neither player knows how much time their opponent has left.

[walleye]

The proposal was not for "could we have an agreement by which we do not look at each others time?" It was "could we have an option whereby I could hide my time from my opponent?". Those are not the same thing.

If you go by my first post, I suggest that you read the rest of this thread. I clarified what I want several times. What I'm proposing is very specific and technically quite easy to implement. One choice is that the client app shows the players both clocks (the default) and the other choice is that it shows them their own clocks only. That's all. What you do with this is another issue.

What Mef suggests is not necessary, but I do like his idea as long as the added random time is quite small, say, within five seconds.

[lemmata]

You control how others play every time you select a particular time setting for the game. Even if the game is casual, you have to make some choice about how long the game will last, which also sets an average pace. Surely, this will effect how your opponent plays.

This comment misses the point. People do not choose time settings to affect how others play. It does affect how others play, but that is a side-effect of trying to be fair in implementing the primary objective: Controlling how long the game will last and controlling how long you have to wait. These desires have little to do with any desire to control the strategic choices of your opponents even if that is an unintended side-effect.

As you've explained it, the hiding of clocks is motivated by the desire to prevent time-informed strategic play on the part of your opponent. It is not a side-effect of some other goal of the feature that has nothing to do with controlling what moves your opponent plays.

The proposal was not for "could we have an agreement by which we do not look at each others time?" It was "could we have an option whereby I could hide my time from my opponent?". Those are not the same thing.

If you go by my first post, I suggest that you read the rest of this thread. I clarified what I want several times. What I'm proposing is very specific and technically quite easy to implement. One choice is that the client app shows the players both clocks (the default) and the other choice is that it shows them their own clocks only. That's all. What you do with this is another issue.

Could Mike might be suggesting that two players could come to a "gentlemen's agreement" to not look at each other's time, which could be accomplished by two stickies? As long as both players follow this gentlemen's agreement, you could actually get what you want. A computer program implementation would give you the same thing, except there would be a different implicit gentleman's agreement not to use time calculation or a spare clock.

[lemmata]

Well, if the players can't see each other's clocks, then they are less likely to use time-based tactics against each other. Will the game be more like a club game? People can't use time-based tactics in a casual club game because they play without a clock. So, if you prevent time-based tactics on a server, then the conclusion is that it will be more like a casual club game in that sense. Is this a good thing? It depends. Will this option build a casual clubby atmosphere on a server? I doubt it.

For what it's worth, creating complications when behind is a standard tactic regardless of how much time your opponent has left. If you are ahead by a generous margin then, you are likely to see a competent opponent create complications anyways. I wonder if there might be unintended consequences. 1) Some people who care way too much may target the players requiring clock-hiding and use time-based attacks on players who were not expecting them. That is, games with this new option may attract precisely the kind of players you may want to avoid. 2) Players who might have chosen to resign when behind against an opponent with lots of time left may decide to create complications on the off chance that the opponent is under time pressure. There is some possibility that this option may not even accomplish what you desire and just add another friction to the process of finding games online.