Why buy slate and shell?

[Splatted]

I don't understand it either. Though in my case it's not so much the price as that I can't see how anything can be so aesthetically pleasing as to be worth killing a living creature to make. That kind of behaviour never makes sense to me...

Isn't this more like cows with leather instead of elephants being poached for tusks? So long as the meat is being eaten and population levels are not allowed to sink too far. But... They did move to Mexico for shells. I do not know if it is because the preferred type are nearly extinct or just standard fishing etiquette.

I wouldn't kill a cow either. It's not about the economy of the system or the welfare of the species as a whole; It's about the individuals who lose their lives to create the product.

I'm not saying those who buy them are bad people and I don't expect anyone to change their world view because I posted a few sentences on the internet. I just wanted to share how I feel.

[tchan001]

If I enjoy eating clams and I find that I could use their shells in a profitable venture rather than just throwing them away and taking up more space at the local landfill which is filling up fast, I don't really have a problem with the death of those individual clams.

If I were outdoors and there were many mosquitoes flying around trying to bite me, I have no problems with the death of those individuals either. I'd dare say I'd want them splatted as quickly as possible

If you were sick with bacteria, would you have problems with the death of those individual living organisms who die to ensure your well being?

[FortyRock]

Certainly gives a new perspective on life and death problems

[̄̄̄̄]

I once went in on a share of a cow, which we got to meet before being sent to the slaughterhouse. It was a little sad. Also delicious.

Clams though, even if the meat wasn't the primary product, I don't think I could muster up much empathy for them.

[Bantari]

I once went in on a share of a cow, which we got to meet before being sent to the slaughterhouse. It was a little sad. Also delicious.

Clams though, even if the meat wasn't the primary product, I don't think I could muster up much empathy for them.

I remember hearing that lobsters don't feel pain because they don't scream when you toss them alive into a pot of boiling water.
We all have excuses to kill for our pleasures... and anyways, who cares about clams, they are slimy.

[skydyr]

I remember hearing that lobsters don't feel pain because they don't scream when you toss them alive into a pot of boiling water.
We all have excuses to kill for our pleasures... and anyways, who cares about clams, they are slimy.

My impression was that people thought they do feel pain because of the scream, but the scream is actually the sound of steam escaping from their shell. As regards their feeling pain or not when it happens, I imagine it's hard to say what pain means at that level of cognition. It's certainly possible that, like the proverbial frog put in a room temperature pot of water that is brought up to a boil, they never experience distress, but then so is the opposite.

[ez4u]

What is the draw? If you prefer slate and shell, why?

They (subjectively) look and feel much nicer. I wouldn't go as far as the person who gave "pure fetishism" as an answer, but I suppose that fetishism plays some role. There is something to be said for setting the mood. I do really enjoy looking at pictures of nice equipment.

Is this worth the cost? Maybe. I haven't decided. What do you think?

If you are thinking of "worth" as investment value, then the answer is probably no. If you judge "worth" based on consumption value, it depends on how wealthy you are and how much you enjoy the other things that you could not do if you spent that money on slate-and-shell stones.

If you are very wealthy, why not choose to own beautiful things? If you are not, then I think that you should think carefully about what else you could do with the money. You could save for your kid's college fund or get some regular go lesson from pros. If you are an artistic person, then perhaps it would be "worth" it.

One interesting bit: Some people I have talked to in person say that they wish they had stuck with glass stones and shin-kaya boards for longer. These people bought the lower-end of the slate-and-shell-plus-kaya luxury goods and ended up wanting to upgrade to even better slate-and-shell-plus kaya later. In short, their message was that you should play on cheap equipment as long as you can until you can save up for a set that you would want to keep for life instead of going through multiple upgrade cycles, which can be quite bad for your wallet as the secondary market is not very active.

This is an interesting point at the end. I think you should always spend an amount that allows you to view your board and stones as 'equipment'. IMHO the point is to play Go unless (until) you become a collector. You will get the most out of your stones if you perceive them as 'attractive' but not so 'special' that you need to protect them. I like the look and feel of slate and shell. I have two sets of snow-grade stones but it is the ratty old glass stone / folding board set that goes out on the veranda in the direct sunlight when I study on a nice Sunday morning in the spring. If I were doing it again, I would go with cheaper slate and shell, and use them harder.

[Erythen]

Addressing the original topic:

Why buy a mahogany chess set instead of a plastic one? Both sets have the same rules and there's no difference in play.

It's a matter of class and eloquence. You can have fun with a plastic set, I've played with plastic chess pieces (and go stones for that matter) all the time. When you want a touch of class, to use those pieces of equipment that have, through thousands of years evolved to be the apex of a hugely influential cultural game, then that's a reason to buy Slate and Shell. To play on a Kaya board with quality stones adds a depth to the game you can't get with normal glass or plastic, this depth doesn't come from the game itself but the added aesthetic feeling you get when you enjoy these pieces. It's hard to describe

Perhaps it's the "soul" of the items that adds to the quality. Imagine buying a Katana, hand forged from the finest Tamahagane iron sand; carefully crafted and polished by artisans over weeks or even months of work. You can buy a sword of equal cutting quality from a cheap factory in China for a mere fraction of the cost, but it's a souless, cold thing when compared to something that has actual care and love go into the manufacture thereof.

Slate and shell stones go through a careful manufacturing process where each individual stone is checked for flaws and some sets are even entirely hand made (Usually the highest quality native Suwabate stones). Each piece is in it's own right a work of art (as much from the clam as the manufacturers) whereas plastic, glass and (I hate to say it) Yunzi don't quite have the same intensive manufacturing process.

Another example, why buy a grand piano when you can get a small electric one at a fraction of the price. Both play just as well, but which looks better in the home? The grand piano adds a great sense of class and eloquence to any living room and while the electric piano is practical it just doesn't hold up in comparison.

It's a personal decision I suppose, but I recommend having a cheap go set around even if you do purchase an expensive one.

As a side note:

Slate and Shell stones don't chip nearly as easily as glass (especially with the higher grade shell stones) and feel much better than plastic.

[gowan]

What is the draw? If you prefer slate and shell, why?

They (subjectively) look and feel much nicer. I wouldn't go as far as the person who gave "pure fetishism" as an answer, but I suppose that fetishism plays some role. There is something to be said for setting the mood. I do really enjoy looking at pictures of nice equipment.

Is this worth the cost? Maybe. I haven't decided. What do you think?

If you are thinking of "worth" as investment value, then the answer is probably no. If you judge "worth" based on consumption value, it depends on how wealthy you are and how much you enjoy the other things that you could not do if you spent that money on slate-and-shell stones.

If you are very wealthy, why not choose to own beautiful things? If you are not, then I think that you should think carefully about what else you could do with the money. You could save for your kid's college fund or get some regular go lesson from pros. If you are an artistic person, then perhaps it would be "worth" it.

One interesting bit: Some people I have talked to in person say that they wish they had stuck with glass stones and shin-kaya boards for longer. These people bought the lower-end of the slate-and-shell-plus-kaya luxury goods and ended up wanting to upgrade to even better slate-and-shell-plus kaya later. In short, their message was that you should play on cheap equipment as long as you can until you can save up for a set that you would want to keep for life instead of going through multiple upgrade cycles, which can be quite bad for your wallet as the secondary market is not very active.

This is an interesting point at the end. I think you should always spend an amount that allows you to view your board and stones as 'equipment'. IMHO the point is to play Go unless (until) you become a collector. You will get the most out of your stones if you perceive them as 'attractive' but not so 'special' that you need to protect them. I like the look and feel of slate and shell. I have two sets of snow-grade stones but it is the ratty old glass stone / folding board set that goes out on the veranda in the direct sunlight when I study on a nice Sunday morning in the spring. If I were doing it again, I would go with cheaper slate and shell, and use them harder.

I like this attitude. I have nice slate and shell stones, a pair of mulberry bowls, and a genuine kaya table top board, which I bought decades ago in Japan, and I use them a lot, playing at home or studying using them. The board is nicely covered in small dents from the play of the stones. The bowls are in good shape. The stones are showing their age with a mellowing of the color which is itself quite pleasing. The "used" appearance of my equipment is satisfying, reminding me of the enjoyment I've had and will continue to have using it.

Regarding collecting, I think most of the go equipment we buy nowadays would not really be collectible in the sense of desirable to other go lovers and, perhaps, selling for a lot of money at an auction. Unless you have a board made by a famous maker, rare bowls of island mulberry, black persimmon, lacquer, thick stones made from clams harvested off Japanese beaches, etc., all of which you keep under careful protection and hardly use, you really have nice "utility" equipment, luxurious to an extent but not unusual. The so-called standard grade stones, by the way, were traditionally called "jitsuyou" which means "practical or utility". Maybe "utility" seemed too common-sounding so the sellers changed the term I don't mind the term and, indeed, have a set of utility slate and shell stones. In order to keep slate and shell stones in top condition you have to wash your hands before using them and clean them properly at regular intervals. This becomes something of an annoyance. I like just to pick up the stones and play or use them to study pro games without having to go through a ritual-like preparation, so I tend to use the utility grade stones more than my best stones, and I forego the ritual washing.

[Splatted]

"X sea creature doesn't feel pain" is a pretty common claim for some reason. As for what pain means at that level of cognition, I don't know either but I feel like the onus of proof should be on the person that wants to boil them alive.

This is beside the point though, since I've only ever heard this justification from people who are willing to kill almost any kind of animal regardless of whether it's clearly sentient and capable of emotion or not. How exactly we go about deciding the value of life and it's various forms is a very difficult and very important issue, but I don't think that's actually the conversation we're having.

Edit: Sorry for the derail OP. On topic I agree with Erythen that buying an item with a sense of history and culture is very different from buying something mass produced (though I'm not sure his quality comparisons are all entirely accurate), but I don't think that can really supersede personal taste. The extra value in these kinds of items is what we ourselves feel, so if a classy item doesn't immediately grab you as being worth the extra money I can't imagine that it ever would be.

[tchan001]

In order to keep slate and shell stones in top condition you have to wash your hands before using them and clean them properly at regular intervals. This becomes something of an annoyance. I like just to pick up the stones and play or use them to study pro games without having to go through a ritual-like preparation, so I tend to use the utility grade stones more than my best stones, and I forego the ritual washing.

How they clean the equipment in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZIwsXpve8

[Bonobo]

How they clean the equipment in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZIwsXpve8

Thank you, that was nice

Could you pls tell us …

• what powder that was that they put into the bag with the white stones after washing them in the egg yolk*?
• were they rinsed in water afterwards?
• And were the white stones dried before the powder procedure?

Thanks in advance,

Tom

<edit>

* Regarding the egg yolk pls see EdLee’s post two posts after this one

</edit>

[̄̄̄̄]

It's イボタロウ a wax powder. I'd imagine you give the stones a little bit of a buffing after applying it. I'm not sure though.

You can buy a set for stones here. But it looks like you would need to use one of those redirect services like Tenso as they don't ship international.

I'm interested to know who's tried this stuff, or if anyone know a better place to order from.

[EdLee]

Hi foe, I know you asked about slate and shell stones. (My favorite is Kuroki size 38 standard grade.)
Here's a video about gobans. (Some of the captions included: 20 years of drying on the shelf; 3 days of sanding, etc.)
Part of the value lies in the craftsmanship. (And part of the value is in the material, of course.)

Mr. Kuroda's Gobans

Because of that egg-yolk video, a few years ago I specifically asked Mr. Kuroki about using eggs for cleaning the shell stones. His reply, "Please don't."

[bogiesan]

We've hit on fetishism, elitism, aesthetics, animal rights, and stupid stone cleaning tricks. (Shells have been lying on the bottom of the ocean for decades and slate is a freakin' igneous rock! They will survive playing the game and they will withstand being cleaned with simple soap and water!)

I have many sets of go stones.
I can only play with one at a time.
My two favorites: flawless 9mm Japanese glass (from ye olde Ishi Press, ca 1985) and shells from Kuroki Goishi Ten that have purple and brown striation—incredibly cool, each stone is obviously unique.

Why do I like the shell and slate set? They have class. You can sense the many artisans' hand-work.