The significance of non-human life

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Re: The significance of non-huma life

Post by hyperpape »

DrStraw wrote:
skydyr wrote:Predators play a vital role in maintaining the health of herbivores as species, and sometimes as individuals by culling the sick.


Only along the current evolutionary path. Had evolution taken a different course which resulted in the absence of carnivores then almost cetainly it would have taken care of the problem along the way.
That's a pretty bold assertion. Evolution doesn't care about population crashes, or try to solve such problems.

It's not implausible that there could be a sort of prisoners' dilemma where each individual produces as many offspring as possible, and there are periodic population crashes. If there's a reason why that setup couldn't evolve in the absence of predators, it would be a pretty interesting fact (and maybe there is: I'm not a biologist).

I'll note that I'm not saying this to try and prove a point: I doubt the fact that non-human animals eat each other has any bearing on whether humans ought to eat meat. It's probably entirely irrelevant.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by moyoaji »

Both of my sisters are supporters of animal rights. One is vegan, the other vegetarian. I have great respect for their choices in this area. I have even considered becoming vegetarian myself, but I just don't share their views when it comes to the relationship between humans and animals.

In the animal rights debate, I hold three axioms that guide my decisions. If you don't accept these axioms then you won't agree with my views. It is that simple.

1. Human beings are distinct from, and more important than, all other forms of life.
2. Life itself is distinct from, and more important than, all non-living things.
3. All finite resources are of value.

This means that I think that living things, being more important than non-living things, have dominion over the things of this planet. Ants can feel free to move soil around. Plant roots can split rocks apart. Beavers can dam up rivers. They all have a right to manipulate their environment.

I think that humans have the same rights, but also have a right to manipulate the living things of this world. We can cut down forests for timber, herd cattle for food, and to breed dogs to be our pets.

However, humans are also capable of restraint (at least, I hope we are) and so should be willing and able to limit their manipulation of the world. All finite resources have value, so we should not use them as if they are worthless. Animals are a natural resource, one that is even more important than oil or precious metals. It is insane to hunt a species to extinction or to torture animals for our amusement. To accept that we are more important than an animal does not mean that animal has no importance.

We must not exploit the world beyond its ability to handle it, and we should treat plants and animals with more respect than we do our coal and iron resources. But as long as we are not wasteful, and what we are doing is not unnecessarily cruel - such as leading to extinction or causing unneeded suffering - then I do think we have a right to use plants and animals for food and other products.

DrStraw wrote:Only along the current evolutionary path. Had evolution taken a different course which resulted in the absence of carnivores then almost cetainly it would have taken care of the problem along the way.

Perhaps life would find a way to sustain a world without carnivores, but humans and other intelligent life would likely not exist. In an episode of "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" they discussed what intelligent alien life would be like. The general consensus is that aliens capable of the intelligence necessary for space travel would almost have to be carnivores for a number of reasons.

First, plants simply don't give as much nutrients as animals do. A pound of beef has far more value than a pound of grass. If humans needed to eat grass to power our brains we would be eating all the time.

Second, how much value a does a good brain have for each of these animals? When your food is a plant, you don't need a very good brain to find one and eat it. But when your food can run away, you need to be smart to figure out how you can catch it.

And if you look at the most intelligent species on earth, you find they are all either carnivores or omnivores. Dolphins, octopi, chimpanzees, and humans all eat more than just plants.
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Re: The significance of non-huma life

Post by skydyr »

hyperpape wrote:I'll note that I'm not saying this to try and prove a point: I doubt the fact that non-human animals eat each other has any bearing on whether humans ought to eat meat. It's probably entirely irrelevant.


I agree with this entirely. Morality, being a human construct, doesn't apply to other animals, and something being natural, in the sense of found in nature, does not mean it is good or moral, or the opposite.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by SmoothOper »

I think Vegan and Vegetarian life styles make more sense the closer you get to the equator. Many people wouldn't have problems with being vegan, if they had an avocado tree in their backyard, on the flip side northern regions have large sparsely populated spaces, and short growing seasons... Don't get me wrong most northerners if they can get their hands on some fresh vegetables during the winter will chow down, but even in these modern days of railroads, things are only so fresh at the super market ya know, and I don't even live that far north. I also love sprouts and rotten grapes and grain and other preserved or sprouted things, but really, the tropic agriculture belt will only support so many people, before you have to start thinking about ways to get nutrient out of vast swaths of temperate grassland. Furthermore look at California they can barely water their cactus, I know they have done there best to ruin paradise running a giant freeway through it, but their agricultural sector doesn't need any help converting the rest of it to dust.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by Bantari »

Ok, let me get my soap box...

I think vegan and vegetarian lifestyles are just fine, even if I personally do not embrace them. To me, people are meant to be omnivores, which includes eating meat. Isn't that the introduction of meat, its preservation and cooking which contributed a great part to our evolution and brain development?

Anyhow... what sometimes gets my goat is not the chosen lifestyle, not even the fact that Bambi has to die for me to have a steak. I like Bambi, but I like steaks too.

If clams have to die so people can survive, so be it, its the circle of life, and we as a race need meat to survive.

But what I find disgusting is when people trivialize the issue. Oh, its just clams, who cares. Well, I think we should care. We might have to commute to work, we might even have to drive big old trucks, but we don't need to do it with a "who cares" attitude. Or when they marginalize such issues. One deer will not make a difference, no? Unless this is how everybody thinks. And what's the point of the US to impose stricter environmental controls if China is polluting like hell? No point doing anything, lets have a party.

And another thing that bugs me is needlessness. We have to kill some animals to live. And with the technology being what it is, we have to impact the environment to survive, by sheer mass of numbers if nothing else. But when people do it for fun, "lets kill the frog, see how it splatters" or the whole idea of recreational hunting - I find that appalling. I know some animal populations have to be thinned out, but we do not need to make a sport out of it, glorify it, teach our kids how cool it is to shoot Bambi right there, behind the ear, yay! See it wiggle in agony on the ground? Good shot!

I think that killing anything is sad. And when you do it, it is sad. Sometimes you have to do it, that's life, but if you enjoy it, there is something wrong with you, mentally.

Needless killing, or killing for vanity, is really really bad. Take the elephants and rhino poaching - so people can buy expensive ivory and horn figurines. Killing of tigers to ground their private parts into "potency powders" of absolutely no medicinal value, and then selling it for a fortune. Stuff like that.

But the worst thing is tormenting animals. I watched once how shark fins are gathered for the beloved shark fin soups. And then the live sharks are dropped back into the water, fin-less and bleeding, left to die and be eaten alive. It is not necessary, and this really makes me angry. At least, if you really really must have the frigging shark fin soup, have the decency to kill the shark quickly and maybe use the other parts for something else, so it is not a total brutal waste.

All this is *important*, I think. At least, to me it is.
But its a personal choice, and we all make it for ourselves.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by skydyr »

Bantari wrote:... or the whole idea of recreational hunting - I find that appalling. I know some animal populations have to be thinned out, but we do not need to make a sport out of it, glorify it, teach our kids how cool it is to shoot Bambi right there, behind the ear, yay! See it wiggle in agony on the ground? Good shot!

I think that killing anything is sad. And when you do it, it is sad. Sometimes you have to do it, that's life, but if you enjoy it, there is something wrong with you, mentally.


While I agree with most of your post, this I disagree with. To me, if one is going to make the choice to eat meat, one is by definition sanctioning the killing of an animal to eat. I think that it's incredibly important to make this decision understanding all of the consequences, and killing the animal you will eat is part of that. If you aren't willing to participate in that directly, it seems hypocritical to participate by proxy, eating animals that have likely been killed in a much less kind fashion, but out of sight and out of mind.

I get the impression that you don't hunt, though you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really hunt either, though I have been hunting before, if that makes sense. But while people can have fun doing it for a variety of reasons, many not involving the actual killing itself, very very few people go hunting with the idea of making animals feel pain. When hunters shoot, they are looking to kill quickly and cleanly. On deer, for example, an ideal shot will pierce the lungs and heart and have the animal dead in less than a minute from the time it was unaware that anything was happening. If someone gets to the animal and it's not dead, or it looks like it's not going to die quickly after being shot, no one wants to sit and let it suffer. But to me, if you think that process of making meat is inhumane and wrong, you should not be eating meat.

Incidentally, some of the strongest forces in our past, at least in America, for natural conservation and environmentalism have been hunters and groups founded by them. Their activity is founded on the preservation of clean natural spaces and healthy animal populations that a lot of the people involved in this discussion would appreciate and advocate for.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by Bantari »

skydyr wrote:
Bantari wrote:... or the whole idea of recreational hunting - I find that appalling. I know some animal populations have to be thinned out, but we do not need to make a sport out of it, glorify it, teach our kids how cool it is to shoot Bambi right there, behind the ear, yay! See it wiggle in agony on the ground? Good shot!

I think that killing anything is sad. And when you do it, it is sad. Sometimes you have to do it, that's life, but if you enjoy it, there is something wrong with you, mentally.


While I agree with most of your post, this I disagree with. To me, if one is going to make the choice to eat meat, one is by definition sanctioning the killing of an animal to eat. I think that it's incredibly important to make this decision understanding all of the consequences, and killing the animal you will eat is part of that. If you aren't willing to participate in that directly, it seems hypocritical to participate by proxy, eating animals that have likely been killed in a much less kind fashion, but out of sight and out of mind.

But this is not what I mean. I agree with you 100%, if you make a personal decision that you will eat meat, then killing is part of this deal, and so is participation, by proxy or not. My problem is with people who glorify killing, make it fun, make it a sport. I understand that in order to eat a cow, I have to kill a cow, and I can do it personally if I have to (although I rather not.) But it will never be a joy for me to do so, it will always be the sad necessity, not something I celebrate or even trivialize and dismiss. I will never teach my kids its *fun* to kill something. I might teach them it is necessary, and even how to do it well. But I will also teach them that it is a serious business, not fun.

Even if it is always a joy to have a good steak or whatever.

I am not really sure how to explain it.
My problem is not with killing per se, I understand it is necessary. It is with the attitude towards killing that some people display.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by Bantari »

skydyr wrote:I get the impression that you don't hunt, though you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really hunt either, though I have been hunting before, if that makes sense. But while people can have fun doing it for a variety of reasons, many not involving the actual killing itself, very very few people go hunting with the idea of making animals feel pain. When hunters shoot, they are looking to kill quickly and cleanly. On deer, for example, an ideal shot will pierce the lungs and heart and have the animal dead in less than a minute from the time it was unaware that anything was happening. If someone gets to the animal and it's not dead, or it looks like it's not going to die quickly after being shot, no one wants to sit and let it suffer.


True, I am not a hunter. But for some reason, I seem to have many friends who are avid hunters. And I could never understand the pleasure of it. If it is about stalking prey and claiming victory, why not do it with photo camera or something. In most hunting situation the poor Bambi is so drastically outgunned, outnumbered, and generally at a disadvantage, from what I understand, that there is really nothing "manly" about killing the poor thing, no real element of "sport". And yet people seem to be very proud of that, toting around bigger and bigger guns and bragging about their kills.

To me, if you want to eat wild game and you have a permit to shoot something - go shoot it, bring it home, and eat it. What is there to brag about, what is there to glorify? Its not like Bambi had a chance. You fund it necessary to kill an animal, for whatever reason, so you did, case closed, nothing to be proud of. Just enjoy the food.

As for clean shots... you are right. But from talking to my buddies about it, my impression is that you want to kill cleanly and fast mostly because it is very unpleasant to have to go and finish the job up-close, you might actually have to look in the animal's eyes. And also - very important - it can be a pain to have to track an injured animal through the bush and then drag him back. And there are laws which say you have to do it when you just injure it. So you want to drop it where it stands, close to your truck, or whatever. Its mostly pragmatism, not moral values, as far as I can see. Still, clean shot and swift kill is better than the alternative, so for whatever reason - it is a good thing that hunters put effort into it.

But to me, if you think that process of making meat is inhumane and wrong, you should not be eating meat.


As I said, this process (of "making" meat) is sometimes inhumane, needlessly, and when I know of a place which does it, I try to avoid meat from such place. I will not eat sharkfin soup, for example, because I do not want to fuel the market, even if this particular shark was killed humanely. This is my personal choice, and I am not trying to force it on nobody.

There are also laws governing such things in this country, so I think it is a valid issue. Other than this, animals need to be killed for us to survive - this is a fact, and I have no problem with that. But they do not need to be tortured. And their deaths do not need to be shrugged off and dismissed.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by DrStraw »

Spot on, Bantari. Good post.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by Longstride »

Bantari wrote:I understand that in order to eat a cow, I have to kill a cow, and I can do it personally if I have to (although I rather not.) But it will never be a joy for me to do so, it will always be the sad necessity, not something I celebrate or even trivialize and dismiss. I will never teach my kids its *fun* to kill something. I might teach them it is necessary, and even how to do it well. But I will also teach them that it is a serious business, not fun.

My problem is not with killing per se, I understand it is necessary. It is with the attitude towards killing that some people display.


Why do you use the word "necessity" / "necessary"? Millions of vegetarians/vegans manage to live long, healthy lives without the "necessity" of killing animals for food.

Also, in my personal opinion, it's precisely the notion that killing animals is "serious business, not fun" that should motivate people to NOT kill animals.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by tchan001 »

Please tell me your opinions with respect to animal ethics in the case of Avian Flu. In Hong Kong recently, they culled 20,000 live chicken at the wholesale market where the virus was tested positive. Would vegetarians/vegans still protest against such killing of animals as being not necessary? Would you rush off to save the chickens to raise in your own home?
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by tchan001 »

If you are a vegetarian/vegan and you were in the following scenario, how would you react if you wanted to survive and how would you feel thereafter?

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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by Monadology »

tchan, what is the point of your questions? Are you genuinely curious or are you trying to ask "gotcha" questions with the aim of showing that vegans/vegetarians might approve the killing animals under some circumstances? If the former, ignore the rest of this post. If the latter, what are you trying to prove? It's not at all clear that crashed plane flights have anything to do with the ethics of factory farming.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by tchan001 »

"The significance of non-human life" is not just about the ethics of factory farming.
As in go, some of the most interesting areas to study are in the extremes (how to set up complications in the game when behind, how to play out the best endgame sequence, how to proceed with difficult tsumego like situations, etc.). I am quite curious to see the opinions on the extremes in this subject as well.
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Re: The significance of non-human life

Post by tj86430 »

In Finland, one of the main reasons (besides getting the meat) for hunting large animals (such as moose) is to keep the population in check and thus avoid a lot of lethal (both to the moose and humans) road accidents.

Also a lot of small predators that are not indigenous in Finland (mostly originally escaped from fur-farms) are hunted because of the damage they do to indigenous species.
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