DrStraw wrote:Bantari, as a vegetarian who has researched your questions deeply I can answer most of them. I could provide references to back up my statements if you need them but it would take some effort and I am not prepared to do that at this point.
Bantari wrote:It is still only a very tiny percentage of the population of this planet which are vegans/vegetarians by choice now, even if they count in millions. I am not sure we could produce enough vegan/vegetarian nutrition (especially protein) without eating animal protein to sustain the whole world. We seem to have trouble doing it as it is (although granted, there are other problems as well, like distribution.)
We most definitely could. Most people in the western world eat way too much protein. It is not just the land used for grazing which would be freed up. It is also all the land used to grow feed for those times when they are in the feedlot or during winter. The number of acres required for each animal is way more than you would imagine and that land could be used to grow a lot of food. Admittedly, not all the land is arable , but there is enough of it. Most people grossly underestimate the amount of protein which is available in such vegetarian fare as beans and greens. Plus, it takes a lot more water to produce a pound of meat protein that to produce a pound of vegetable protein. And it don't just mean twice as much, although I forget the exact number. It is a huge multiple. And as we all know, water is in short supply and is slated to become the next gold. Nestle is buying up water rights all over Africa and selling the water back to the locals. The same is happening in other parts of the world.
Hi Steve,
This is a HUGE subjest, so let me post a few more question and thoughts in here, then I will address the rest of your post separately.
Tell me - how does water-based protein fit into that? I mean - fish and other seafood. When you stop fishing, its not like you can plant lentils there or anything on the land. Seafood is a huge source of protein and nutrition in the world, and to cut out this source without any replacement will not be easy, if even possible. There are whole communities, regions, and countries who rely heavily on fish protein. For example - Japan. They simply do not have enough land to grow what they need, and without fish they would have to either starve, or move, or pay through the nose for others to give them food. I am not sure this would be good right now.
You say "western world". But there is much more to the world than the west and the US of A.
There are huge regions in the world, for example in Africa, where people can easily have some chicken and wilderbeasts to sustain themselves on eggs and an occasional butchering, but where the land and the climate prevents any large-scale farming. Or even small-scale farming. If we take away all their livestock, how will they survive? Who will produce their food, and how will they pay for it? Are you and your family willing to work double hours to feed a family in Africa?
But lets say we can grow extra corn in the US, do you know how much it takes to transport it to the heart of Africa in a form that is still edible and nutritious? I don't, but I am sure the cost is astronomical. How do we solve this problem? Will you and your family be now working 3 times that hard to pay for that too? People in Africa don't have much to pay you with, and we can't just let them starve. Or can we?
Also there are other issues with plant food production, ones that I seldom see mentioned by the veggie-sauruses, but which concern me.
One example is: pesticides. Won't we have to use more pesticide to have more plant-producing land and make this land more efficient? Overall, this is not so good, is it? But if we all become vegetarians, we might realize we need to put a lot more of that stuff into the ground and on our food. Even as it is, you need to scrub each apple you get really hard before you can safely eat it, or so the doctors seem to say, and I for one believe them.
Another example is that of frankenplants. You mention later in your post frankenherds, and you are right. But most of the plant food we eat is as heavily modified on a genetic levels as the livestock, if not more so. And who knows what other stuff is put in there so the strawberries always look red and shiny (even if they test like crap) and people spend more money on them. But even without greed - how much chemicals and engineering we need to grow enough corn to be enough for all? And how much more aggressive we will have to be in this respect if we cut out all the animal protein and now have to produce even more corn?
Somehow, when people talk about genetic engineering of plants they are proud, while genetic engineering of animals is looked at with suspicion. Personally, I see no difference, you tinker with Mother Nature either way, and you are just guessing what kinds of results it will produce long-term. Or shall we burn all the engineered crops and stuff, like we kill off all the engineered cows? I would be *very* surprised if we then still had enough resources to produce enough to survive.
I already skimmed this - but how about transportation then? Right now, a lot of plant food is picked before they ripen and then go through the nitrogen process during transport - this is the only way we know, or at least the only way which is affordable, to deliver edible products to the end user. By and large, this process kills a lot of the nutrients, or prevents the nutrients to develop in the first place, not to mention it ruins most of the taste. What about that?
And the price. Some time ago I switched to a 100% organic diet, mostly locally grown and raised, and the difference was HUGE. Both in terms of my health, my well-being, and my enjoyment of food. But it is very expensive, and most people probably could not afford it. Also, very little food is grown organically right now, the process is simply not as efficient.
So, as a race, we are doomed to the genetically engineered, nitrogen-ripened, cardboard-tasting, and nutrition-low varieties of most of the veg. How to solve that? I imagine this problem will be magnified when we have to start feeding the rest of the world, as we will have to do when the whole world becomes vegetarian.
I mean - when you speak as a person who made the choice to move away from civilization, live on simple local food from local growers,, and generally live a healthy life surrounded by nature, what you speak of seems very possible, even desirable. And I cannot argue with you, you have it good in this respect, from what I understand. But from my perspective, of somebody living in a big city in the middle of the desert, tied in here by my job and lots of other stuff - it all looks less rosy, and questions just keep popping up.
So you see, the issue is not quite as simple for me, and while I am not an expert, I know enough to know that many of the problems I mention are not solved and not solvable right now. And there are tons of other problems and questions. Its a complex issue.
Although on personal level - it is simple. This is why I believe in personal choice and both choices being equally valid.
