How to Become a Dan

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:38 pm

You don't have to be in the exact same situation to make use of what you've memorised. Memorising a bunch of games should give you a good feel for how pros deal with all sorts of situations e.g. what shapes do they make, how do they deal with their opponets' thickness, how do they make use of their own etc. Not to mention the fact that a lot of local situations will repeat exactly.

Ryuukun · Post by **Ryuukun** » Mon May 05, 2014 1:04 pm

Truly great stuff. Thank you kindly good sir.

kupus · Post by **kupus** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:46 am

Re memorizing games, there were discussions about that method on rec.games.go,
and I was personally given that advice too.
I believe that was method used mostly by Japanese amateur players.

On rec.games.go, besides Roy L who wrote about it, I've found Motoyasu's ideas interesting - see below:

---- Motoyasu Miyata 3/4/94

The object of memorizing first 20/30 moves of 100 games played
by professionals is not to follow their pattern exactly in your
game. It is to aquire a sense of what good balance of stones
is in the opening stage. The same is true to learning Joseki.
After you memorize 500 Joseki, you naturally know what good
shapes are. It does not matter if you forget the exact sequence
after a while.
In fact, I would strongly recommend memorizing professional games
to Kyu players who want to become 1-dan. Memory of a game does
not have to last long: a few hours will be enough. All players,
I know, who memorized first 100 moves of 100 games reached 1-dan
level when they finished the last game, inclding myself. So I
believe that this method is the best of all.
It has some advantages over others. You can do it by yourself
whenever you like. Unlike other Go text books, there is no
bad material: any game is as good as another. Above all, this
simple method works for everybody regardless of his level.
If you are weak it takes you much more time to memorize the
same 100 moves than it would take a stronger player. That's all.
A warning to those who are tempted to do the above:
You must have a strong will to become 1-dan this way. Although
the method itself is easy, it is not easy to carry it over. I
know many who started but gave up before they reached 10th game.
Moto

----- Motoyasu Miyata 3/8/94

Reply to Bernd Ebach (#2048)

My definition of memorizing 100 games is given below.
First you lay out a sequence of first 100 moves of a recorded professinal
game on your board. Then you start replaying the game from the beginning
again. You repeat the procedure until you finally can reproduce the
sequence without looking at the record. That completes memorization
of one game. You do the same for 100 games.
If you are 21k, you may need hours to complete one game. If you cannot do
it within a day, you had better reduce the number to first 50 moves, or
even 30. The first 10 games will be most difficult for you to memorize.
After 50 games it will be much easier. You will be able to finish the
100th game within half an hour.

The books I used had comments, but I did not pay much attention to them.
They were too high-leveled for me to understand and therefore I found
them not very useful.

The above Practice No. 1 was recommended to me by a top amateur player.
But that was the only first half of what he told me. FYI, here is
Practice No. 2 he recommended.
"If you can spare 15 minutes a day, do the following. Buy a book of
death/life problems. The easiar the problems are, the better. Try
solving 30 a day. If you cannnot solve one within 30 seconds, just look
at the answer. You repeat the same 30 problems next day. Eventually
you will be able to solve every one of them within 30 seconds. Then start
another set of 30 problems. Practicing No.1 alone may make you Shodan,
but how far you can go beyond that will be limited by how many problems
you have solved."
I started. After 3 days I gave up Practice No 2. It was so boring and made me
sleepy. How right he was! Because I never did this practice systematically,
I remain at 3-Dan for ten years and can't go further, while all of those who
solved 1,500 or so problems went up to 5-dan or higher. I still fail in solving
half of 1-3 Kyu problems. But thanks to Practice No. 1 which I did for a total
of a few hundred games, my opening design up to 20/30 moves became as good as
5 Dan's, and covers up my poor reading ability to a certain extent.

I must admit there is one drawback in this method. There is not nuch fun in it.
That is why I said I would recommend it to *those who want to become Shodan*.
To those who would rather seek fun in playing Go as Kyu player, I would not
recommend it. It is certainly more enjoyable to play 1,000 games of your own
than replaying somebody else's 100.
Moto

--------- Motoyasu Miyata

Now it will take me only 15 minutes or so to memorize the first 100
moves of a pro game. (I cannot keep the memory more than a couple of
hours, though.) Am I more talented than you in memorizing? I guess not.
I would find much difficulty in memorizing, for instance, a game
between two 9k players.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:01 am

kupus wrote:Re memorizing games, there were discussions about that method on rec.games.go,
and I was personally given that advice too.
I believe that was method used mostly by Japanese amateur players.

On rec.games.go, besides Roy L who wrote about it, I've found Motoyasu's ideas interesting - see below:

---- Motoyasu Miyata 3/4/94

The object of memorizing first 20/30 moves of 100 games played
by professionals is not to follow their pattern exactly in your
game. It is to aquire a sense of what good balance of stones
is in the opening stage. The same is true to learning Joseki.
After you memorize 500 Joseki, you naturally know what good
shapes are. It does not matter if you forget the exact sequence
after a while.
In fact, I would strongly recommend memorizing professional games
to Kyu players who want to become 1-dan. Memory of a game does
not have to last long: a few hours will be enough. All players,
I know, who memorized first 100 moves of 100 games reached 1-dan
level when they finished the last game, inclding myself. So I
believe that this method is the best of all.
It has some advantages over others. You can do it by yourself
whenever you like. Unlike other Go text books, there is no
bad material: any game is as good as another. Above all, this
simple method works for everybody regardless of his level.
If you are weak it takes you much more time to memorize the
same 100 moves than it would take a stronger player. That's all.
A warning to those who are tempted to do the above:
You must have a strong will to become 1-dan this way. Although
the method itself is easy, it is not easy to carry it over. I
know many who started but gave up before they reached 10th game.
Moto

----- Motoyasu Miyata 3/8/94

When I was learning go I avoided memorization, believing it better to be able to work things out without relying upon memory. However, memorization has a long history as a means of learning around the world. I have studied memorization techniques, both ancient and modern, and I now think that it is worth a try.

The above Practice No. 1 was recommended to me {Motoyasu} by a top amateur player.
But that was the only first half of what he told me. FYI, here is
Practice No. 2 he recommended.
"If you can spare 15 minutes a day, do the following. Buy a book of
death/life problems. The easiar the problems are, the better. Try
solving 30 a day. If you cannnot solve one within 30 seconds, just look
at the answer. You repeat the same 30 problems next day. Eventually
you will be able to solve every one of them within 30 seconds. Then start
another set of 30 problems. Practicing No.1 alone may make you Shodan,
but how far you can go beyond that will be limited by how many problems
you have solved."

Practice #2 involves overlearning, and overlearning is good. But this method is, as indicated, boring. You do not have to overlearn to the point of overkill. There are better ways of doing it.

pwaldron · Post by **pwaldron** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:06 am

There was a point where I did memorize a number of pro games, and I didn't feel like I got much out of it for the time that I put in. Later on, however, I started studying pro games again and found that memorizing the game before studying helped a lot. Often times, moves that appeared initially baffling were much clearer when I knew that it would be important 25 moves in the future.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:30 am

pwaldron wrote:There was a point where I did memorize a number of pro games, and I didn't feel like I got much out of it for the time that I put in. Later on, however, I started studying pro games again and found that memorizing the game before studying helped a lot. Often times, moves that appeared initially baffling were much clearer when I knew that it would be important 25 moves in the future.

A modern pro, I think it was Takagi, commenting on one of the ancients, I think it was Dosaku, said that Dosaku often made moves that looked like beginner moves to Takagi, but that proved to be right on the nose 20 or more moves later.

pwaldron · Post by **pwaldron** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Bill Spight wrote:A modern pro, I think it was Takagi, commenting on one of the ancients, I think it was Dosaku, said that Dosaku often made moves that looked like beginner moves to Takagi, but that proved to be right on the nose 20 or more moves later.

Beats my moves. They look right on the nose when played, but look like a beginner's after another 20 moves.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:41 pm

pwaldron wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:A modern pro, I think it was Takagi, commenting on one of the ancients, I think it was Dosaku, said that Dosaku often made moves that looked like beginner moves to Takagi, but that proved to be right on the nose 20 or more moves later.

Beats my moves. They look right on the nose when played, but look like a beginner's after another 20 moves.

DIG IT.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:57 pm

pwaldron wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:A modern pro, I think it was Takagi, commenting on one of the ancients, I think it was Dosaku, said that Dosaku often made moves that looked like beginner moves to Takagi, but that proved to be right on the nose 20 or more moves later.

Beats my moves. They look right on the nose when played, but look like a beginner's after another 20 moves.

At least you know what you're doing wrong now. Just change the order around and you should be 7 dan or stronger!

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:12 am

So I thought to revive this thread by analyzing all the exercises with LZ, following erzelom's initiative with Making Shape. Surprise surprise: sente is more important than having a broken sphere of influence.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:24 am

Lecture 2, in which LZ finds a better local move than Kim 9p's joseki and also casts some doubt on the firm difference Kim sees with the "non-joseki"

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:39 am

Analyzing lecture 3 with LZ gives the most astonishing result until now: here's a non-joseki all of us know as a beginner mistake which can be duly punished. LZ agrees that the joseki move is better but not for the shape consequences we have been taught but because ... it keeps sente and not just that.

I think I've discovered a new proverb: "use sente to play 3-3 in the corner opposite to the current action"

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 pm

Interesting that you hadn't seen the following move before, this way of refuting this sequence I've definitely seen pros lecture about and teach, actually slightly more frequently in my personal encounters I've seen this way taught than the other way. I had thought it was pretty standard knowledge (along with, for dan players, considerations about if white has a top side stone that could let him try E18 cut and then crawl at F18).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X O 1 . . . $$ | . X O O . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I do think different pros have in the past favored teaching different sequences in response to the initial hane. Having seen both ways taught, I'm glad to see LZ at least in this one case suggest the one I personally favor a bit more.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:28 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X X W . . . . $$ | . . O O 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

When I was 3 dan in game reviews I started telling my opponents who had played the hane, :wc:

, to connect at :w2:

. I even played that hane-and-connect sometimes myself.

I had realized that in general the connection was good, but I still thought that the descent, :b1:

, was correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . 2 4 . . $$ | . X O O O . . . . $$ | . O 1 . . . 3 . . $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Until AlphaGo, I still thought that :w1:

was correct, even though :bc:

still had significant aji. To counter that I usually continued with :w3:

, expecting :b4:

in response, and happy when Black did not play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . . . . . $$ | . X O O O . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . 1 B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

IMX, most beginners wanted to connect underneath with :w1:

. I told them that was wrong. :oops:

OC,

still has aji because of the threat to cut, but it's not too hard to convince yourself that the beginners were right.

Later, when I learned about this clamp, the argument seemed rather subtle to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . $$ | . X X X W 1 . . . $$ | . X O O 2 . . . . $$ | . O @ . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Tewari comparison with joseki indicated that the exchange of :wc:

and

was aji keshi. We now have to recognize that :ws:

is misplaced, as well.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:02 am

RE lecture 3: Yes, I'm rather surprised Knotwilg didn't know the descent being the fake punishment for DDKs nor seen the clamp! I've been saying that on these boards for years when this hane not extend question is asked, as it repeatedly is. See viewtopic.php?p=161728#p161728 from 2014 and following dozen posts with discussion and links to other threads from 2014 and 2012.

P.S what LZ and how many playouts are you using Knotwilg? The way you write about variations ending suggests you might be just looking at principle variation of suggested move instead of playing them out. For example for me LZ #157 in lecture 2 wants to crawl not cut after the shoulder hit joseki from 1k to 50k playouts by 55% vs 52%. And the classic punishment for white's cut in the case black has the ladder is to atari on the outside and push, a move LZ barely considers. But that could be revealing a weakness of LZ as it's bad at seeing ladders 10 moves in the future. So if I take the role of black "punishing the cut" and let LZ play as white let's see what happens. It sees the ladder within a few thousand playouts and we end up with black capturing the 2 stones (with some bad aji) and white getting a wall outside with black at 47%, lower than the push down is predicted to be at that time (but actually playing it out black's win% deteriorates, interesting it doesn't play the supposed tesuji cut):

: llknot-l2a.PNG (808.79 KiB) Viewed 48938 times

P.P.S we should remember the lecture series is called "How to Become a Dan" so is aimed at kyus. So recommending the descent instead of hane, which is IMO (and not-ancient pro opinion) a bad move unless your opponent is a generous noob and blocks is fair to criticise as bad teaching for being outright wrong. But something like tenuki or the counter pincer instead of shoulder press in lecture 2 is fine teaching as it's a simpler move that makes your stones work together (and only -0.2% in LZ 157). Pros do sometimes play a counter pincer (with a little more global reason to do so). LZ doesn't know how to temper its advice from "How to Become a 10p".

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