Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
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by Hades12 Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:14 pm
@edlee, and opex
Observers:
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859 Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pmGD Posts: 312Location: Santa Barbara, CAHas thanked: 349 times Been thanked: 2070 times
Post
by EdLee Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:24 pm
Hades and opex,
Of course, it is up to opex to decide to continue the game or not.
Hades12 wrote: his comment was ridiculing my play five moves ago and saying it was bad. I can't go back and fix.
Hades, that is very valuable information. It DOES affect the game. You cannot go back and undo a sequence, no,
but knowing whether the result is good or bad for you CAN affect how you play from now on.
If you know a result is good, you can play one way.
If you know a result is bad, or if you have certain strengths and weaknesses, you can play another way.
It matters a lot.
Can you imagine walking around a tournament (or even casual games) and kibitzing in mid-game out loud to the players ??
You picked the wrong joseki. You should've blocked the other way. That's clearly too close to thickness; you should've played here instead. That's bad shape; now you have a weakness here.
Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
Post
by Hades12 Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:56 pm
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859 Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pmGD Posts: 312Location: Santa Barbara, CAHas thanked: 349 times Been thanked: 2070 times
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by EdLee Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:46 pm
Hi Hades,
Hades12 wrote: honestly, i still regard this as exchange as fine for me...
It's not about the moves. It's about the kibitz.
opex
Lives with ko
Posts: 201 Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 amGD Posts: 0KGS: 2kOGS: 8kUniversal go server handle: opexLocation: Saint-Petersburg, RussiaBeen thanked: 5 times
Post
by opex Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:21 am
$$Wcm38 Still thinking, sorry...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38 Still thinking, sorry...
$$Wcm38
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38Basically these are the choices.
c helps to get rid of r5, but it might be gote. I'd like to try and invade the bottom if it is gote, and to reduce if it is not.
d if for building the top, but black can hane, not that i can build something great.. Maybe i should do
e first.. Until r9
e could start a splitting attack, now he can just connect on top of these two stones letting me connect. As for
b , black will go into the corner, and although i can swallow c14, it feels not worth giving up the corner. On the other hand,
a is like please, fix what you should have fixed already. If
b ends up being dame for black, it's ok though. Wait.. then it'll be harder to attack that new group without base.. I kinda really want
b ... Need to think more.
@all
Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
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by Hades12 Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:42 am
Thanks, take your time. @opex
drmwc
Lives in gote
Posts: 452 Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:18 pmRank: 4 Dan EuropeanGD Posts: 0Has thanked: 74 times Been thanked: 100 times
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by drmwc Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:31 am
I don't think uberdude's comment gave away information that could help Hades.
Not for players
And I agree with uberdude that the exchange in question was duff for black!
$$Wcm38 Still thinking, sorry...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38 Still thinking, sorry...I W doesn't pretect down here next, B has a cut.
opex
Lives with ko
Posts: 201 Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 amGD Posts: 0KGS: 2kOGS: 8kUniversal go server handle: opexLocation: Saint-Petersburg, RussiaBeen thanked: 5 times
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by opex Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:45 am
$$Wcm38
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38
Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
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by Hades12 Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:31 am
$$Wcm38
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727 Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 amRank: UK 4 danGD Posts: 0KGS: Uberdude 4dOGS: Uberdude 7dLocation: Cambridge, UKHas thanked: 436 times Been thanked: 3718 times
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by Uberdude Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:01 pm
@Ed and obs RE post 44.
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: Ed did you think of this diagram independently before hades?
Did you check the timestamps first before you asked the question?
I posted the diagram 5 hours before Hades played
, and 6 hours before opex replied with
.
Of course, I have no way of knowing who came up with the variation first in our minds before posting.
Yes, it was independent.
Yes I saw your post was first, but was surprised that both you and hades came up with the same (bad/strange) move that feels very unnatural to me so wanted to confirm. I want to understand both of your thinking that made you want to play this move to satisfy my own curiosity, to help me teach better and also help me generate the same mistake when I give handicap.
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: A thank you move is a bad move which your opponent is happy to answer
Yes, I know what it is. In my games, my opponents and I make lots of thank-you moves for one another.
I'm guessing you also make some thank-you moves for your opponents, and vice versa.
I thought you would know what it is, but it seemed a good idea to clarify vocabulary before proceeding.
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: do you really think 32 is bad and 33 good? Who do you think the 1 2 exchange benefits?
When I posted, I thought the exchange
-
was good for B. I could be completely wrong, of course.
I see thanks for clarifying. Yes, you are wrong (assuming white continues with 34 as he did)(I am sure, I would make a $100,000 bet). Btw, I don't think of 32 for 33 as an exchange. 32 was a gote move which stabilised the white group, and then black chose to make the 33-34 bad exchange, so 33 is the thank you move.
EdLee wrote: At that time, I thought
helped B. But now, if W had not played
, then B could play
at B9, forcing W to live small in gote, painful for W.
So
in the real game forced W to come out with
. So,
probably better at C11 (kosumi) instead.
Yes it would be difficult for white to omit the slide to 32 as black's attack at b9 is painful, though if white pushes at d8 and black naturally blocks at e8 then c10 is a good tesuji for white to live or escape, so it might be better for black to attack with c10 rather than b9. Yes
at c11 is better than c10 in the game, though being gote is rather slow. In fact, looking at the whole board, black r9/r8 vs white r10 is so huge I would not dismiss white playing there instead of the b10 slide.
opex
Lives with ko
Posts: 201 Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 amGD Posts: 0KGS: 2kOGS: 8kUniversal go server handle: opexLocation: Saint-Petersburg, RussiaBeen thanked: 5 times
Post
by opex Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:30 am
$$Wcm40
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm40
Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
Post
by Hades12 Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:01 pm
$$Wcm40
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm40
opex
Lives with ko
Posts: 201 Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 amGD Posts: 0KGS: 2kOGS: 8kUniversal go server handle: opexLocation: Saint-Petersburg, RussiaBeen thanked: 5 times
Post
by opex Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:14 am
$$Wcm42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm42
EdLee's favourite:
$$Wcm42 Broken shape for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm42 Broken shape for black
Hades12
Lives with ko
Posts: 157 Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pmRank: 2DGD Posts: 0Tygem: shivaHas thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 11 times
Post
by Hades12 Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:07 pm
$$Wcm42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm42
opex
Lives with ko
Posts: 201 Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 amGD Posts: 0KGS: 2kOGS: 8kUniversal go server handle: opexLocation: Saint-Petersburg, RussiaBeen thanked: 5 times
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by opex Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:28 am
$$Wcm44
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm44
, and 6 hours before opex replied with 
.
-