#233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Just playing to live. This, at least, still leaves the cut at N4.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Hades12 wrote:i think moyoaji might need one more move here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . . 2 O . X 7 . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . a 3 1 8 . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This attachment may cause him problems.
Could you show the "problems" in diagrams ?
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Edlee

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm31
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X 2 3 O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . 5 . 4 1 X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . 6 . 7. . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]




If I'm not mistaken, if B omits the turn then this sequence kills?

Edit: a makes life
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And I live in gote. But at least I lived with a few points and all the white points on the bottom are gone and I still have the cut for later.

Let's see what he does next. I'm sure my opponent will take sente here.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Post by EdLee »

Fix the cut?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . O O . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


i would love to play a large point here. But I need to fix the cuts everywhere. This seems to threaten an attack on the right side. So maybe I can still get sente. But I hate to give black a thank you move. This only makes the side harder to get into.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like my opponent's move was sort of wishy-washy.

Yes, it basically defends the cut by serving as a ladder breaker. Yes, it threatens to surround my corner. But it really does neither. I'll have a number of possible forcing moves to threaten the cut again and, with this one move, I not only get my corner out, but I am now going to be building 4th line territory on the right if white decides to push from behind to get a wall.

I might be concerned about giving white a wall here, but I already have my group stabbing into the center. It is not totally alive yet, but I have two eyes in gote if I want them and still have plenty of space to move around. It is just something I need to remember to keep an eye on.

I will also want to grab sente to extend from my upper corner soon to prevent white from pressing me down there and limiting my ability to develop the right.

Basically, I question whether white will get more in the center than I'll get on the right considering my stone is on the forth line and ahead of his.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Can white really build the center that much?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O O B . B . b . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . O B . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . O O . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . B , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . O X X X . X O O . B B . . |
$$ | . B O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like after this white needs both 'a' and 'b' to try to build the center; his potential there is already being limited by my groups on either side.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


im slipping behind. I need to play strongly up top.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Sticking to the plan. Pushing from behind here seems necessary for white, but it doesn't seem good.

Fun fact: They call the forth line the "line of victory" when you are making points there. Hopefully this result will help lead me to victory.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

The exchange :w46: - :b47: is probably good for B. (If so, then W should not have done it.)
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This was a tough move to decide on. On the one hand I want to play high to build my potential on the right. On the other hand, playing low helps against potential invasions. My thought is that, if white invades now, he'll have two weak stones, which could become two weak groups, which is bad.

I feel that I have a lot of good choices for my next move. If white defends his approach stone I can invade the corner to prevent a double wing. If white encloses his corner I can attack his stone. I also have the turn at P12. Lots of good things for me to do.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 0 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 2 1 . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I need to play a strong game from here on our. But I can't go into panic mode and fight too much and over extend. I need to keep out of panic mode. I think I'll see a move up top near the left corner.
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry this move took so long. I've been a bit busy the last couple of days.

I don't want white to get an enclosure here. That would make the top and left side quite easy. I figure the best way to prevent that is to take this move. After all: "your opponent's best move is your best move."

From here, I think white can pincer or press me down. I think either is fine for him and I think either way I can get a decent result here. All I want to do is limit white's potential. I feel like I'm ahead right now, so I think all I have to do is limit white's potential to win. At some point this weekend I'll count things up and post what I think the score is.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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