single piece board - veneer, or something else

joellercoaster · Post by **joellercoaster** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:09 am

Hi all.

I recently bought my first goban (Six Brothers shin kaya tabletop board with model number HJSJ 20B), and it's a lovely bit of wood. It's definitely a motivating factor to study, just to play on it!

But I'm a interested in the way the grain appears. Specifically, the grains line up on the sides of the board, but either something cunning has happened with the cut (entirely possible, I know nothing about wood and its internal geometry) or it has a veneer for an upper surface. The photographs make the 'veneer' layer appear more pronounced than it is in person though... the actual look is more subtle.

I'm not unhappy about this, by the way - I love what I have. But I am a little bit surprised that something like this is sold as "single piece", and basically just curious about it.

I don't read Korean, but can supply pictures of the box panels if this might shed any light.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:06 am

That's got to be a veneer. You can see a faint light line on the top where the grain of the wood stops, which is the depth of the veneer. On a solid block, the lines on the top would touch and line up with the grain pattern on the side, the way they do if you look at the corner in the first picture. That said, the actual cut of wood looks like it's quartersawn (masame) which is good for the long-term stability of the piece. I'm not sure why they would put a veneer on top of that. Maybe for product consistency?

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:13 am

skydyr wrote:That's got to be a veneer. You can see a faint light line on the top where the grain of the wood stops, which is the depth of the veneer. On a solid block, the lines on the top would touch and line up with the grain pattern on the side, the way they do if you look at the corner in the first picture. That said, the actual cut of wood looks like it's quartersawn (masame) which is good for the long-term stability of the piece. I'm not sure why they would put a veneer on top of that. Maybe for product consistency?

I agree about the veneer. No reason not to enjoy the board, it looks very well made. A veneer might have been used because of some flaw in the wood (e.g. a sap pocket or a knot) that would otherwise make it unusable for a board. What does the back (bottom side) of the board look like?

schwartzseer · Post by **schwartzseer** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:52 am

I disagree with the consensus, I am certain that it is *not* a veneer, but rather an artifact of how the Korean's treat the surface of the board. If you look closely it appears that the lines on top match up with a line on the sides, but not all the lines are showing up on top. Korean boards have traditionally used a semi-transparent varnish on their Agathis and Shin-Kaya boards to "brighten" the wood and cover up the grain; with Agathis boards, the sides are often stained darker, to offer a contrast with the top, but this is not usually done with Shin-Kaya. Using a veneer on a board without obvious defects would frankly be silly, and given Six Brothers excellent reputation I would be surprised if they would be marketing a "solid wood board" with a fake top.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:09 am

schwartzseer wrote:I disagree with the consensus, I am certain that it is *not* a veneer, but rather an artifact of how the Korean's treat the surface of the board. If you look closely it appears that the lines on top match up with a line on the sides, but not all the lines are showing up on top. Korean boards have traditionally used a semi-transparent varnish on their Agathis and Shin-Kaya boards to "brighten" the wood and cover up the grain; with Agathis boards, the sides are often stained darker, to offer a contrast with the top, but this is not usually done with Shin-Kaya. Using a veneer on a board without obvious defects would frankly be silly, and given Six Brothers excellent reputation I would be surprised if they would be marketing a "solid wood board" with a fake top.

I disagree with this. Looking at the top, it's clear that each of the individual grains starts dark and lightens roughly evenly until it meets the next one, which is consistent with it being a single year's growth. I'm not sure how or why they would go through a process to make 1/2 to 2/3 of the rings disappear while leaving the other 1/3 to 1/2 and making them look as if they were just one ring.

My best speculation as to why remains either product consistency, in that every board has an evenly spaced grain on top with no flaws, or to cover up a grain or board flaw, such as a twist in the grain or some sort of wood injury. A veneer may also make it easier for them to apply the board grid, as they could apply the grids to the entire veneer sheet and then trim them as necessary for the individual boards. Given the cut of the wood, a knot would have to appear on an edge of the board moving towards the center, not in the top or bottom. This is because the wood is cut mostly perpendicular to the grain, so that one side is much younger than the other. As mentioned, the reputation of the company is quite good, and it would be odd to make just a few boards with a veneer without explicitly labeling them as such and selling them in a different category. I can't think of any other reasons than those I've mentioned as to why they would do this.

I know with agathis boards there is often a yellow wash applied to the top surface to mask the grain to some degree and even out the colour. I've never heard of this with spruce, though, as the colour is already the pale yellowish tone to which they aspire.

joellercoaster · Post by **joellercoaster** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:20 am

I wonder if the veneer (assuming it is one) is from nearby in the block? The grain lines up perfectly on the sides, and seems to be... I don't know. Related on the top. Parts of it seem right, parts of it seem like they are nearly there, or with multiple rings matching a single, fuzzier dark strip on the top surface, as though cut at a slight angle. But then, other bits seem completely different, like where there are a lot of closely spaced rings in the side.

Again, I am a wood ignoramus, and it could just be the human brain's tendency to see alignments where none exist.

Will take a photo of the bottom when I get home.

(Also: I don't know if Six Brothers themselves marketed it as a single piece board since I don't read Korean, but the English-language supplier I bought from is similarly reputable - I don't think anyone is doing anything underhanded! And the board *is* beautiful.)

DrQuantum · Post by **DrQuantum** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:57 pm

I don't think there's a veneer on that board.

First, because the rings that are visible on the side are at an angle relative to the surface, the lines one observes on the flat surface are farther apart than the perpendicular distance between adjacent rings. This is just geometry. You may be able to detect that, where the rings encounter the flat surface at closer to perpendicular, the surface lines are closer together. This is what geometry would dictate.

Also, the rings one sees in the crosscut are all dark - but again because of the geometry of the flat surface, I am not surprised to see some come through as dark, some as medium, and some not very visible at all.

Second, the issue of the seeming lightening of the surface relative to the rest - I think this is likely due to the sanding of the edges to make them less sharp. You'd expect, if a sander is used to "round off" the edges, the "corners" to look both lighter and more uniform. I strongly suspect this is what is going on here.

I think what you've got is a beautiful board there. Mind letting us know what supplier you bought from and how much it set you back?

T

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:03 pm

This is an interesting discussion. I don't know whether you bought this board from us, but we work quite closely with 6 Brothers, so maybe I can help to answer your questions anyway.

Based on your photos and the SKU (model # i.e. HJSJ20B), here are a few comments:

1. It definitely looks like the whole board is shin kaya, but

2. I think that there's a veneer on the playing surface only and I'll explain why they do that below.

3. The SKU you've quoted (HJSJ20B) also indicates a solid shin kaya board, but the SKU is weird.

Firstly the SKU. HJ (hyeongje = brother) SJ (shin bija = shin kaya) 20 (indicates the exact product within the family, thickness, cut etc) B (normally means the board has legs!?).

We don't stock this SKU, but we sell two similar 2.4'' boards; HJSJ21A (single piece shin kaya) and HJSJ23A (multi-piece shin kaya). From your photos, I think the board you have probably is HJSJ21A.

Sometimes 6 Brothers seem to just use whichever display packaging they have left over when packing equipment for us (and I imagine probably for other stores too). Since the packaging is all in Korean anyway, I think they think it doesn't matter for their Western distributors. They use the right packaging when they're selling boards to Korean brick and mortar stores and use the left over stock as just part of the packaging that protects the board.

This has very occasionally led to confusion in the past with expat Korean customers and personally I'd prefer to have display packaging with English printed on it one day, but that's still a long way off being economically viable. Anyway, my point is that whatever it says on the packaging could be accurate, or it could be a red herring.

About the veneer... Usually the single piece shin kaya boards that 6 Brothers sell as HJSJ21A are just a single piece of spruce with the appropriate wood treatments and a playing grid printed on the surface. However, there's a natural variability in the color and grain of spruce (shin kaya). Because of that, about 10-20% of boards made in this style are deemed too dark, or the grain too contrasting for the surface to be comfortable to play on.

In these cases, they use a lighter piece of spruce to create a veneer for the playing surface only, because they think this makes it easier on the eyes when playing. This technique is regarded as preferable to painting the surface (like they do with agathis, which is again to make it easier on the eyes). The whole board is still shin kaya, but it looks to me like yours does have a veneer treatment on the playing surface and it actually requires a very high degree of skill to do it this well.

In Korea, these boards are apparently just sold for the same price alongside the other 80%+ which are made from lighter colored spruce and nobody minds. We thought that Western Go players might not like this style of board, so we asked 6 Brothers to only select boards from the 'other 80%' which don't have this treatment when shipping to Go Game Guru.

If you ordered this board from us, then someone must have made a mistake at the factory and I'd appreciate it if you could let me know please. And, if you did order the board from us and you don't like it, then we'd be happy to exchange it for you.

You didn't post a photo of the bottom of the board in the three above, but one way to confirm my explanation for what you're seeing is to compare the color and grain on the top and the bottom of the board. Is the bottom of the board a much darker color? If so, it supports what I've written above.

Either way, it's a nice Go board you have there and I hope this explanation helps to solve the mystery for you

.

badukJr · Post by **badukJr** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:08 pm

gogameguru you might want to reconsider choosing only the other 80%, seems as though people can't tell a veneer anyway

joellercoaster · Post by **joellercoaster** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:32 am

gogameguru wrote:If you ordered this board from us, then someone must have made a mistake at the factory and I'd appreciate it if you could let me know please. And, if you did order the board from us and you don't like it, then we'd be happy to exchange it for you.

...

Either way, it's a nice Go board you have there and I hope this explanation helps to solve the mystery for you .

I did indeed buy the board from you. I'm completely happy with it, there is no need for an exchange - I was just curious! Thank you for the explanation, that's really interesting

I'll take a photo of the board bottom today - I do remember looking at it and thinking how different it was from the top when it first arrived.

It's a very nice board.

bogiesan · Post by **bogiesan** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:04 am

Fascinating thread.
It's a veneer.
Is not.
Is so.
Is not.
The importer seems to think so.

A macro lens on your camera or a decent magnifying glass will show if there is a distinct separation and a seam filled with glue between the top surface and the rest of the block. If it is a veneer, and, to me, it's obviously a veneer (I've dabbled in marquetry, but veneering stock readily buyable in the States from, say, Woodcraft, is neither so precisely thin nor generally available in sheets large enough to cover a go board), it's certainly been attached with a great deal of skill, patience I do not possess, and attention paid to matching the grain that is a bit obsessive.

Bonobo · Post by **Bonobo** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:49 am

thril-ling!

joellercoaster · Post by **joellercoaster** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:50 pm

Here's the back: interesting to look at, but probably distracting to play on.

bogiesan · Post by **bogiesan** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:37 am

Those little knots or flaws in the wood? Evidence that god has a sense of humor, don't you think?
Now we know it is a veneer, those flaws are not visible on the top surface.
That's a board I'd love to play on or own, too bad about the veneer!

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