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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #21 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:59 am 
Oza

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Bonobo wrote:
ROTFL OK forget it :-D

I just happened to stumble over this board/subforum and thought that it was odd that it still existed as separate board (perhaps we could have a graveyard board where all this obsolete stuff can rest in peace, as “read only”?) and since I’m all aflame about OGS, well, you know how irrational people in love can be ;-)

Cordially, Tom


It (the subforum) may not have widespread support, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #22 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:11 am 
Tengen

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One reason that there might be less demand for an OGS forum is that they run their own forum and have a support website. It's not to my taste but it presumably is where many users go.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #23 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:46 am 
Gosei
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☯GS has a new forum now … took a little time for me to like it because it is very “modern”, but meanwhile I appreciate how it works.

Also … tadaa, public beta test of the new OGS: http://forums.online-go.com/t/help-us-b ... of-ogs/142

Nice opportunity for everybody to help making ☯GS even better—expressing critique is a good thing if something can be improved, but active cooperation on improving something is much more satisfying :-)

Cordially, Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #24 Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:05 pm 
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I support keeping this board open as sort of a reminder if the Kaya creator ever visits here.

He took tens of thousands of dollars in donations, and he didn't even open the source before he disappeared. You would assume that everyone who supported him deserved at least that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #25 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:59 am 
Tengen

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Bonobo, why do you keep calling it GS. OGS is its name. (Or I sometimes call it nova OGS if I want to distinguish it from old OGS.)


Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #26 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:16 am 
Tengen

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Looks like you can't see the unicode character he's using. I see it as a yin yang symbol.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #27 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:24 am 
Gosei
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Uberdude wrote:
Bonobo, why do you keep calling it GS. OGS is it's name. (Or I sometimes call it nova OGS if I want to distinguish it from old OGS.)
Uhm … I’m using an Unicode character (Yin Yang, U+262F, UTF-8 E2 98 AF) … is it not showing everywhere? :shock:

Attachment:
OGS thread.jpg
OGS thread.jpg [ 32.93 KiB | Viewed 3200 times ]

Greetings, Tom


<edit>

Could it be platform dependent (because of different fonts installed per default)? I use OS X …

</edit>

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #28 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:30 am 
Gosei
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Bonobo wrote:
<edit>

Could it be platform dependent (because of different fonts installed per default)? I use OS X …

</edit>


I can see it on Ubuntu.


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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #29 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:32 am 
Gosei
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HermanHiddema wrote:
I can see it on Ubuntu.

Thanks, Herman :-)

But I think if not everybody can see this I should prolly quite writing it that way <sniff>

Greetz, and thanks to Uberdude for making me aware of the problem.

Tom

<edit>

(changed the opening post)

</edit>


<edit 2>

wbt ♥GS … can you see the heart symbol before “GS”?

</edit 2>

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #30 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:22 am 
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I see it just fine - Windows 7


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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #31 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:39 am 
Tengen

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Ah, I can see it now on my desktop (Win XP) but not my phone (Samsung S3 Android 4.3)


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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live ☯GS
Post #32 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:43 am 
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badukJr wrote:
I support keeping this board open as sort of a reminder if the Kaya creator ever visits here.

He took tens of thousands of dollars in donations, and he didn't even open the source before he disappeared. You would assume that everyone who supported him deserved at least that.


I am not surprised that Kaya went quietly to its death without so much as a source release. From the first, limited release it was clear that the developer(s) were building what they wanted to build without any care to what the community wanted.

The fact that they took money for it and gave us nothing is dishonest. I didn't give them money. In a way, they were quite ahead of their time; they pulled a Kickstarter before Kickstarter was a thing: disguising a blatant hand-out as an investment or pre-order.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #33 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:16 pm 
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The worst part is I've heard he took a nice job in California making quite a lot of money, he could at least return some of it.

When our community is so small, something like that sucks us dry and sets us back in time as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #34 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:00 pm 
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I sunk a couple hundred dollars into Kaya.gs despite the fact that I planned not to log on much until it gained a good user base.

I do not regret it. The lesson I re-learned was worth it: People who love go would not act the way that the founders of Kaya did. They probably loved what go does for their ego, not go itself. In the end, I was a sucker for not realizing that Kaya was just a vanity project. I don't hold ill will against the founders of Kaya. They didn't trick me at all. In retrospect, I ignored all the warning signs that were there (in blinking neon) from the beginning.

Have we been set back? Perhaps. By a lot? I think not. Programming a go server is not exactly rocket science. An intelligent comp sci undergraduate student could write a full-feature go server in one month. I doubt that we lost much because Kaya's founders did not release the source code. The lesson learned from the fiasco is more valuable than any bits of Kaya source code.

That said, I did find their illegal (at times) broadcasting of Baduk TV streams to be offensive. That was not cool when Gogameguru.com was working hard to get a legal BadukTV streaming business off the ground. That was the only thing that really pissed me off about Kaya.


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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #35 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:28 pm 
Oza
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lemmata wrote:
An intelligent comp sci undergraduate student could write a full-feature go server in one month.


Wow... this is REALLY not true...

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #36 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:30 pm 
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oren wrote:
lemmata wrote:
An intelligent comp sci undergraduate student could write a full-feature go server in one month.
Wow... this is REALLY not true...

They used to a lot harder things than that in one month back when I went to school. Before I switched full-time to more math-y stuff, I audited a graduate-level class devoted to just network programming (protocols, servers, peer-to-peer, blah-blah-blah). Half of the class consisted of undergrads who were actually enrolled (not auditing like me). For the course project, one guy made a somewhat primitive 3D FPS game+server. This took a little more than two months as I recall, but he had to take other classes while doing this so I doubt that he spent a full month on it.

So yeah, it's not as crazy as it might seem to think this.

EDIT: Of course, "full-feature" does not mean bug-free or even visually pleasing.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #37 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:00 pm 
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lemmata wrote:
EDIT: Of course, "full-feature" does not mean bug-free or even visually pleasing.

It also depends on what you mean by full-feature. Some developers feel full featured means it uses the latest programming techniques as opposed to actually making go playing features that are useful to players.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #38 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:14 am 
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http://www.yosefk.com/blog/low-level-is-easy.html

I'll just leave this here for y'all. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #39 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:07 am 
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I have absolutely no doubt that an intelligent undergrad could build 'a go server' in under a month. Heck, a brilliant 13-year-old could have one going in a week of all-nighters - complete with secret keyboard shortcut to change the mouse pointer into something obscene.

However, when embarking on a project, you need to build for longevity. This does not mean that you need to incorporate a million forward-thinking ideas like Facebook integration, live videos accompanying game broadcasts, Karma and revolutionary new challenge mechanisms. Similarly, longevity is not a magic byproduct of modern technologies and frameworks.

A grad. student or prodigy would NOT achieve longevity in a month. They might build a 'working' server and be able to demonstrate it in a University lab or on a projector but it would be a proof of concept only - it would illuminate the battlefield and reveal some of the 'unknown unknowns' that might be relevant to a properly planned Go server. I have my doubts that they'd be able to achieve true longevity in a whole year, let alone a month, simply because they would have little experience building long lived projects.

A more interesting question is this: could a brilliant, experienced, old-hand write a Go server in a month?

Full time? (Let's be mythical and redefine 'month' to be "160 man-hours"?)

Not a proof of concept? (That is, after the first month and the first release, he/she could then continue iterating and adding functionality & features?)

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 Post subject: Re: Kaya is dead, long live OGS
Post #40 Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:33 pm 
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I have visited a few websites where the layout was extremely similar to kaya, the elements and sliding things to bug you. Same size, font etc. They weren't related to go.
I think a lot of kaya was built from some template or website-in-a-box so you will never see the source released.

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