Moderation level

[daal]

This has highlighted a technical flaw with the way moderation seems to happen. I saw all the posts before the mods saw them, as I use the "view new posts" feature. I did NOT see the subsequent banning, because the posts are edited in place, and hence do not show up again in "view new posts". So the bans are mostly invisible to me, which I think is a problem.

I imagine my usage is typical of many users of the forum, and I would thus like to request that banned posts somehow trigger the "view new posts" flag. I don't know if this can be achieved in any way apart from the mods replying to the post?

So what you are asking for is that whenever the forum attracts a spammer who spams countless threads while nobody is monitoring, you would like to be notified of each change made by admins/mods to remove the spam and the person who was banned as a serial spammer.

What he's asking for is to be kept informed about important events. If his suggestion is impractical, why not just say so? Perhaps another possibility would be if edits could be made trigger the "new posts" flag.

And under your logic, cleaning spam would not be regarded as an "important event" so it should be prioritized lower in the list of things to do, since there seems to be such a belief that there is too much moderation here already?

Perhaps I should indeed take a more hands-off approach as many other mods/admins other than JB and myself seem to be doing and just let the self moderation ability of the forum manifest itself to the best of it's ability. Thank you all for your kind thoughts about how we should tone down moderation on the forum.

Please do ask the other eagerly waiting mods and admins to delete the spam and handle other reported matters because I am currently on break from moderation duty and will resume only after I feel completed rested.

I have the feeling that my words are being twisted in my mouth. Quantumf's suggestion to flag banned posts was clearly not about spam. It was about informing members about administrative actions that we as a community are rightly interested in knowing about. There is a difference between an admin/mod deleting spam, which all forum members unquestioningly support, and an admin/mod prohibiting a member from expressing themselves. The latter is a matter that many of us have strong feelings about, to the point of finding some such admin/mod decisions unjust or even harmful to the community as a whole. It is about such instances that my comments and those of quantumf were directed.

If you consider this a personal criticism, I can understand that, because as an admin/mod also your decisions also are being questioned. But why shouldn't they be questioned? Isn't it your job as a moderator to act in our interests? If the actions of moderation appear to members of the community immoderate, should there be no mechanism to correct these actions? To imply that we would prefer to be spammed is not the point, and to retaliate against criticism with threats of allowing the forum to be spammed is not an appropriate response.

[tchan001]

Criticize my moderation all you want. I'm just informing you that I'm tired of moderating the forum at this time and am taking a break. Doesn't mean I won't join in conversations as a regular member though.

As a moderator, we are supposed to sign off our notices, warnings, and bans to show which moderator made certain judgements and are therefore entirely open to the membership for criticism of our actions. While there is quite a long list of global moderators, how often do you see the other moderators make judgements on potential hazards as defined under the guidelines? It gets very tiring when many of those who have the power just sit on their hands and the few who do try to protect the forum with their interpretation of gray areas of the guidelines end up with all the criticism. If you look at who signs off on the red letterings, you know who does the moderation and administration VOLUNTEER work. Why don't people who want to report problems try to PM some of the other mods/admins and get them to carry some of the load? I just feel very tired now and need some rest. When I feel rested, I'll gladly help out again.

[Bonobo]

[..] While there is quite a long list of global moderators, how often do you see the other moderators make judgements on potential hazards as defined under the guidelines? It gets very tiring when many of those who have the power just sit on their hands and the few who do try to protect the forum with their interpretation of gray areas of the guidelines end up with all the criticism. If you look at who signs off on the red letterings, you know who does the moderation and administration VOLUNTEER work.

Has then the admin/mod team tried recruit a few more mods? Has the team done anything for team growth? It is certainly bad to allow team members to become exhausted … we NEED you folks, therefore … isn’t it your duty to take care of yourselves also? Just like Mom and Dad? (Forgive me for talking about duties, but this duty to care for oneself is a good one, no?)

Why don't people who want to report problems try to PM some of the other mods/admins and get them to carry some of the load?

Do people constantly PM you with problems instead of pressing the report buttons?

Also: Doesn’t the team talk to each other? Is there now regular virtual meeting place where you’d talk about internal things?

I just feel very tired now and need some rest. When I feel rested, I'll gladly help out again.

I understand that you are frustrated and feeling hurt. I also understand that it was NOT the intention of any of the people who posted here to frustrate and to hurt you but rather to talk about this issue, and to find a positive way to solve it.

As I wrote before, this is not about trying to find a culprit, this is about finding a reasonable solution to the issue. The issue is NOT you. The issue is how to treat people who want to offer something related to Go, for money.

Greetings, Tom

[tchan001]

I'm pretty sure that there are fewer active mods than there were in the past. So while we should make sure anyone who becomes a mod is well suited, I think the worry about too many mods is merely hypothetical.

For someone who does have moderation power (as in being on the list of global moderators) to say this probably mean that the forum has too few active mods.

[Bonobo]

I'm pretty sure that there are fewer active mods than there were in the past. So while we should make sure anyone who becomes a mod is well suited, I think the worry about too many mods is merely hypothetical.

For someone who does have moderation power (as in being on the list of global moderators) to say this probably mean that the forum has too few active mods.

Thank you.

Yes, I think this whole discussion is MUCH more about this fact than about anything else. It is no surprise that you folks feel “tired” if you are too few, and if it is always the same one, two, three people who have to do all the work.

Again: Do you admins & mods talk w/ each other at all? Has this fact never been topic? How do you, how can WE ALL take care that the numerical relation of mods to users is a good one? Should we create a thread where we can vote for people to become moderators? Could you mods create a list of people you’d like to see in the team, then ask these people? BTW I’d also include sincere users in such a list who have been critical in the past since a person who expresses a serious, sincere critique also expresses their will to contribute, to participate in something they care about.

Please note that I’m not asking what you can do for us, I’m asking what we can do for L19. I am convinced than every contributor to this thread loves L19 as THE place for Go players to meet, and I am convinced that the only motivation to post here is to contribute to making L19 an even better place.

Greetz, Tom

[Uberdude]

I'm pretty sure that there are fewer active mods than there were in the past. So while we should make sure anyone who becomes a mod is well suited, I think the worry about too many mods is merely hypothetical.

For someone who does have moderation power (as in being on the list of global moderators) to say this probably mean that the forum has too few active mods.

So are there users with mod capabilites unaware of their hidden powers? Do we need some Peter Parker moments?

[Boidhre]

So are there users with mod capabilites unaware of their hidden powers? Do we need some Peter Parker moments?

It's not something that is hidden. Just go to a mod, then look at their profile for the group section, pick global moderators and then hit "go" to show users in that group.

[Joaz Banbeck]

...
Again: Do you admins & mods talk w/ each other at all? ...

Of course. Like most forums, this one has a private area where admins/mods can discuss issues.
It is used almost daily. ( It has occasionally been the site of vigorous debates )

I don't see that we have a shortage of mods. We are not getting overrun by spam or trolls.
A handful of members have been very diligent about reporting problems ( Thanks, guys, you know who you are ) and we seem to have someone available to handle those problems as they arise.

[HermanHiddema]

I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.

How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?

I propose that the current mods just add 15 new mods or so. No nominations, elections or asking for volunteers, just add some active users you think you can trust.

[tchan001]

Well to be fair to the rest of the mods, I'm on the forum quite often and just happen to see many of the things first. So I end up fixing many things but this gets tiring after a while especially when I do not have Solomonic wisdom. And I didn't say quit, just taking a break

[Joaz Banbeck]

I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.

How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?

'Overworked' is a relative term. A mod/admin's perception of it may be dependent of how much criticism he receives.

We don't have a shortage of mods. Maybe we have a shortage of happy mods.

[HermanHiddema]

Well to be fair to the rest of the mods, I'm on the forum quite often and just happen to see many of the things first. So I end up fixing many things but this gets tiring after a while especially when I do not have Solomonic wisdom. And I didn't say quit, just taking a break

Oh, yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you quite permanently, just that you quit "for now".

Part of the problem here may be that you are the only mod in East Asia, so you are probably online at times that most of the other mods are asleep.

[daal]

Well, the point is that, it not being the ideal world, and people being the way they are (yes, even the mods/admin are people) - we should build some functionality to prevent the admins from getting out of hand if there are too many of them...

I know it's fun to debate theoretical discrepancies, but the actual situation is not that we have too many mods, unless you count the ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. What we have is 2 admins/mods, one of whom is exhausted from the work/criticism, and another who thinks that there is no need for any more mods/admins and no functionality whatsoever for keeping them in line. In fact the catch-22 situation exists that the TOS asks that complaints about an admins actions should not be aired publicly, but rather in P.M.s to the admins who will then supposedly take care of the complaints about themselves.

... Surely there can be a middle ground here to provide both privacy and transparency.

I agree completely. I'm working on it right now. Expect an announcement in the next day or so.

[skydyr]

I know it's fun to debate theoretical discrepancies, but the actual situation is not that we have too many mods, unless you count the ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. What we have is 2 admins/mods, one of whom is exhausted from the work/criticism, and another who thinks that there is no need for any more mods/admins and no functionality whatsoever for keeping them in line. In fact the catch-22 situation exists that the TOS asks that complaints about an admins actions should not be aired publicly, but rather in P.M.s to the admins who will then supposedly take care of the complaints about themselves.

I wouldn't be opposed to a limited access subforum for this reason, with membership open to users with a certain number of posts, say 50 or 100, to ensure that they are active members of the community with a stake in the outcome of the process. Of course, given the existence of this thread, it's clear that some discussion of these issues is tolerated.

I suspect that the original reason for this was to prevent a thread about every bit of moderator action and drowning the forum in debate about the moderation process, to the exclusion of actual content. In addition, by making it public, one could, hypothetically, invoke desires to not be seen as backing down, which may be detrimental to the long term stability of the site.

[RBerenguel]

I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.

How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?

'Overworked' is a relative term. A mod/admin's perception of it may be dependent of how much criticism he receives.

We don't have a shortage of mods. Maybe we have a shortage of happy mods.

Please, go players in the same city of a mod: gift them a beer or coffee. They deserve it

On unrelated news, is it just me or the site has been down somewhat often lately? I've seen "server not found" errors more than 3 times (each day) in the last 4 days.