proverbs - original language

[iam3o5am]

Hello all,
I've often seen the proverb "Lose your first 50/100 games as quickly as possible". I am wondering if anyone knows whether or not this saying exists in Japanese or Chinese (and, of course, not just a translation back to those languages). I am curious to know its original form.

Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.

[EdLee]

碁に勝って勝負に負ける.

Google translate is nice for at least the romanji: go ni katte shōbu ni makeru
Perhaps: In Go (碁に), to win (勝って), lose the match (勝負に 負ける).
Other people can do better.

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.

[Abyssinica]

I didn't post because the only meaning of 勝負 I knew was "Win or lose", but it definitly makes more sense as "Win at go, Lose the match." Maybe add "then" before lose because て and stuff.

[EdLee]

I didn't post because the only meaning of 勝負 I knew was "Win or lose",

Taken individually, 勝 = win, 負 = lose;
but together, one meaning of 勝負 is shōbu, a match/game.
Another meaning is as you said, "victory or defeat".

Perhaps: To win in Go, lose the match.

[Abyssinica]

But then wouldn't that be 碁に勝つには勝負に負けて or 碁に勝つように勝負に負けて?

I haven't touched this language since October so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt. Or two. Or three.

[Rowen]

But then wouldn't that be 碁に勝つには勝負に負けて or 碁に勝つように勝負に負けて?

I haven't touched this language since October so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt. Or two. Or three.

Your doing better than me. I'm trying to learn the language and can't fathom being able to read the above sentence. Although I can pick out the kana so I'm getting somewhere - slowly, but somewhere all the same.

[shapenaji]

[

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.

I like this proverb actually. Speaks to the the dichotomy between playing to learn and playing to win. If you're playing to learn, you should eventually push yourself over the edge and lose, if you're playing to win, you'll eventually start playing safe to ensure the victory.

[Bantari]

[

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.

I like this proverb actually. Speaks to the the dichotomy between playing to learn and playing to win. If you're playing to learn, you should eventually push yourself over the edge and lose, if you're playing to win, you'll eventually start playing safe to ensure the victory.

When you play your first 50/100 game,s is it more important to win or to learn?

[shapenaji]

When you play your first 50/100 game,s is it more important to win or to learn?

Well, you can't give up on winning entirely, otherwise you have no incentive to learn. So I'd say you should focus more on playing to learn, but take the wins where you can get them. (Especially if you're destroying your opponent, you're not going to learn much from trying to continue to break apart an already broken position)

[John Fairbairn]

Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.

"Win the go but lose the game." It's tempting to think this may be like our "win the battle lose the war", but it doesn't quite overlap as Japanese usage is less about the guile of a superior long-term commander and more about the whiners in those cases where a player claims to be ahead throughout most of the game but loses through a late blunder or whatever. The saying ("proverb" is overstating it) is simply a reminder to grasp that a loss is a loss, however you dress it up.

[Aidoneus]

Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.

"Win the go but lose the game." It's tempting to think this may be like our "win the battle lose the war", but it doesn't quite overlap as Japanese usage is less about the guile of a superior long-term commander and more about the whiners in those cases where a player claims to be ahead throughout most of the game but loses through a late blunder or whatever. The saying ("proverb" is overstating it) is simply a reminder to grasp that a loss is a loss, however you dress it up.

Ah, the proverbial "I should've won!"

[iam3o5am]

Thanks Mr. Fairbairn for your input! All that remains to my original post here is whether or not the 'lose 50/100 games as quickly as possible' is some amateur idea that crept into Senseis Library, or does it exist in some original Japanese/Chinese form from some time ago?

Thanks of course to everyone else as well. I was right there too, thinking the Japanese text was some sort of 'lose the battle, win the war' equivalent. Its good to see it in the proper light now.

[cuetzpalin]

I like the "lose 50 games" proverb and I always tell it to the people I teach how to play.

I always explain the meaning as:
-Don't get depressed at a lost game, as losing is part of learning.
- Don't expect to always win, for as in life, losing is part of the game
- Play as often as possible when you are new to go.
- You learn more of a lost game.
- Play any number of games you need to play until you've lost 50 or 100 (ie doesn't mean to lose on purpose)

[gowan]

I think the "lose 50 games" should be amended by adding lose 50 games in which you pay attention and think about your moves. If you just throw stones around and don't pay attention to what happens you'll never get any better. If you pay attention and think about your moves (have goals and plans) you'll learn and probably improve around 10 to 15 ranks. It also should reassure beginners that they are going to lose a lot of games in the "getting started" phase. We do see a lot of posts from people who are upset about losing a lot.

[Abyssinica]

Instead of having there being a win and a loss, there should be a first and second place. That way, no one loses!