51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:44 pm

Not sure how open you guys are to kibitzers, but...

This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.

Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:56 pm

Numsgil wrote:This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:

$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.

Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?

Well, W's group is pretty safe, and D11 has the nice property of reducing the liberties of the C11 group. For example, if W gets C10 in, C13 could become a real problem.

By the way, C10 (after White's actual move at D11) would be a thousand dollar turn. The sequence you give:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is totally not.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Actually, the more I look at it, the top right is a royal mess. My bottom left makes this ok, but still bad. It's a 20 point actual loss up there, but I get semi-sente back with this move because of D4. Letting me play at "a" is hardly painful, but it recoups a lot of my top left loss.

One of the most frustrating things about the top left is the disappearance of a lot of aji. The squeeze of Black "b" through "d" is now gone, because the top group can't be attacked. There's still plenty of "let's make that thickness not very useful" aji up there, but it's not as good. I think the game is very close now, plus or minus 5 points or so, but that's ok, I can work with that

Isn't a living move, it's an attacking move. I can now take "e" and connect in sente at the cost of aji if needed for living space, and obviously I'm aiming at "a" directly.

Triggers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Solomon** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:28 am

Looking back, I think 37 was too soft from Black. This sequence looks more promising:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

38 and 40 are necessary to prevent a damezumari issue with the 4 stones. Up to 41

is clearly damaged and Black's left side looks good. White could then try to settle with 'a'. Compared to the current state I think Black looks better here.

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:56 am

What's the policy on reading triggers before deciding on a move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts
First move that crossed my mind! It should make C13 sente for me, unless he wants to tenuki at the cost of getting enclosed! After reading the trigger though, the C9, B8 exchange that he suggested works too and might be a tiny bit better!

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:53 am

Feel free to view my triggers before posting

Probably makes sense to think of the move first purely from an informative point of view, but I'm happy for you to look at my triggers and change the move too...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Move 41 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

I don't think that exchange helps White at all. I'm still looking at jumping out at "a", and the possible bad aji I had from doing so before (White "b", Black "c", White at

) is now gone. I'm happy that White's wall can be negated towards the middle reasonably effectively if he chooses to tenuki now, but at the same time any move he plays has to be one I can ignore safely.

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:31 am

Strategy and thoughts

I thought that C13 was sente now, but I think I'm wrong! Black can give up part of the corner to get two sente moves, which is just unacceptable for white! The marked stones have no purpose, so giving them up is not a problem for black and the rest of the group should have no problems living or escaping!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 41 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . 7 B O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B O X O O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . 5 B O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Therefore I'm going to tenuki now and play one of the marked points:
'a' is my first instinct, but the proverb says "Don't use thickness to make territory", so maybe 'b' is better!
However I have to find out whether that proverb applies here, so I'm going to think a bit more before I make a move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:19 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:53 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Move 43 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X @ O . , a . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X @ X f . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X @ O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmmm.. this feels like the wrong side to me. He's got so much thickness at the top, and he's pushing me gently towards it allowing me to be strong when I get there. A further extension to "a" virtually eliminates the potential he could have built on the top side, and if he excludes it I'm aiming for "b" and the extension to "c". Still aiming at "d" generally (and probably would have played it if White had approached form the other side), and eyeing the aji at "e" and "f". Sadly, my corner messup (and the more I read, the more of a mess up it really is, it's at least 25 points, maybe more

) has left me unable to attack any of the marked stones. I'm definitely behind by 10 or so points at least at the moment.

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:13 pm

dfan wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:

$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.

Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?

Well, W's group is pretty safe, and D11 has the nice property of reducing the liberties of the C11 group. For example, if W gets C10 in, C13 could become a real problem.

By the way, C10 (after White's actual move at D11) would be a thousand dollar turn. The sequence you give:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
is totally not.

This is a thousand dollar turn?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My impression was that a TDT was a non empty triangle facing out into the center of the board. Or am I misunderstanding something?

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:27 pm

Numsgil:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe that Dfan meant that if black did not play here, white would get to make a thousand-dollar turn at z. Meaning, in turn, that the bamboo joint is worse because it doesn't threaten that followup.

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:33 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm44 Move 44 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X f . . . . . . . X . 1 . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe it was the wrong direction and I was thinking too much ... stupid proverbs

Anyway, I'm ahead, so let's just grab my share of the corner and build a solid position on the right!
If he tenukis I get the whole corner ... not bad either!

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:59 pm

Chew Terr wrote:Numsgil:
$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I believe that Dfan meant that if black did not play here, white would get to make a thousand-dollar turn at z. Meaning, in turn, that the bamboo joint is worse because it doesn't threaten that followup.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:30 pm

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:45 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, I'm not going to defend the corner and just let you build edge points. My extension along the top is gote regardless, and I want something to counter your thickness.

Triggers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . 5 O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 7 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 2 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , 7 . . X . . 6 . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Other things I'm keeping in mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X 5 . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)