Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?

[gowan]

Every high handicap game is a teaching game in my opinion. Any arrangement in a teaching game is OK as long as you are learning. But I think a large reverse komi is hard for the weaker player to use. I have heard that the popular pro teacher Yang Yilun plays on even with his students and stops the game when he feels it isn't reasonable to continue.

[Abyssinica]

This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".

Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.

Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.

[paK0]

This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".

Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.

Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.

I just feel like these stones encourage cuts that don't work, or rather encourage cutting without verifying that it works beforehand.

But its been a long time since I've played a game with handycap stones, maybe my memory of it is a bit wrong.

[Bill Spight]

Mh… I always thought that the reason for HC stones is that Black needs to learn how to use their stones, how to keep them connected, how to save them, etc.

Wouldn’t reverse Komi counteract this idea?

Regards, Tom

Go players still have to learn how to use their stones.

[quantumf]

Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.

I just feel like these stones encourage cuts that don't work, or rather encourage cutting without verifying that it works beforehand.

But its been a long time since I've played a game with handycap stones, maybe my memory of it is a bit wrong.

My cutting is based on experience of similar situations, and sometimes (not often enough) reading. If having lots of nearby allies encourages a player to cut and fight (even if its beyond their reading ability), then great. Go is a fighting game, after all, and handicap stones (should) reinforce that. Nothing like an all-or-nothing fight to push those reading muscles.

[hyperpape]

If you are worried about having an opportunity to play games with an opening, and everyone is game for it, you can just play an opening, and then end the game and discuss it when it is hopeless. I recall doing that from time to time against stronger players at my old club. As long as everyone understands the arrangement, it works fine.

[lemmata]

Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?

I'm around a 16 kyu player. At our weekly club in Las Vegas, most people that I play are much better than me. Mostly around 4 kyu and higher. Initially, I would take a nine stone handicap against these players and I would still lose pretty bad but it got me thinking; is getting a nine stone handicap allowing me to improve or am I learning to beat someone with a nine stone head start?
My thoughts are that I'm learning how to beat someone with stones on the board, which I believe is a completely different strategy than playing someone straight up.

For the last month or so, I've been requesting a large "reverse Komi". This RK is approximately 9 - 11 stones per rank difference, and usually no more than 99.5 points with no handicap stones on the board. The games are much closer and I think that it's teaching me real strategy.

The question is: Is there any danger to my studies by playing this way?

The odds are that the "real strategy" you are learning by playing a 5-kyu player with no handicap stones is not good strategy. There is no insult there to 5-kyu players. Open board strategies are hard even for pros! Reading a opening problem book will likely be more helpful.

This is all quite natural. As players get stronger, they learn what to do as their advantage in an area gets smaller. A 5 dan and 5 kyu might have somewhat similar opinions about how to play as black on 9 stones in the opening, but could have dramatically different opinions on 6 stone games. The idea is that what your opponent teaches you during a review is more likely to be correct if handicap stones are involved.

That said, I do not see the reverse komi as a bad thing necessarily. It is somewhat easier to track smaller progress with reverse komi and it might expand the set of people who want to play against you. Furthermore, placing stones on an empty board is fun in a unique way that cannot be replicated. There is some artistic feeling in it. Having fun helps learning a lot. I would only encourage you to mix it up by playing with handicap stones half of the time (or flip a coin every time). You might find yourself using what you gained in handicap games and applying it to 0 stone games.

That said, this whole issue might be moot soon. 16-kyu players do not stay 16-kyu for very long. If you have a bunch of friendly people you can play with you can improve fairly quickly.

I do love handicap games though. They teach you about different strategic parts of the game progressively. If you ever get a teacher, I would encourage you to stick with handicap stones for that reason. I would rather not play reverse komi games at a club because even games are easy to get online.

[Tettamanti]

Thank you everyone for the advice. I'll be playing most of my games with the nine stone handicap from now on. Thanks again!

[moyoaji]

Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.

Sorry that this is coming late, but I haven't had my copy of Lessons with me this past week. I am pleased to have it back and I wanted to double check this without simply saying "No, Kageyama never said that" only to be proven wrong. I completely agree with the idea that weaker players need to be unafraid of cutting - if handicap stones give them the confidence they need to cut then they are helping.

An overall theme of Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go is that one needs to learn to read and be confident in that. Kageyama would never tell players to simply "cut first, ask questions later" as that goes against a fundamental: you need to read. A cut may not be good. Only reading can tell you when this is the case.

In chapter 2 Kageyama says "Cut where you can cut" in the context of the proverb "Don't peep when you can cut." This could be confused with the idea of "cut first, ask questions later." But it isn't the same. Kageyama does not say that all cuts are good. In the context of this thread, he does say that, when facing a stronger player, one should not be afraid to play a cut. And I agree that To assume he's saying one should always cut would be to ignore his advice throughout the rest of the book emphasizing the importance of reading and dealing with fundamentals in context. For example, he does say one should always answer a peep. Then he quickly gives a counter-example of not answering a peep as an early-game ko threat.

In Attack and Defense, Davies and Ishida discuss the strategy of cuts in their own chapter 2. "When you cut off something your opponent can afford to give up, the cut may actually be counter-productive, helping him to strengthen his position."

Thank you everyone for the advice. I'll be playing most of my games with the nine stone handicap from now on. Thanks again!

Don't be so quick to jump upon popular opinion. There is much to be learned from a reverse komi game, in spite of what many here seem to believe.

Bringing this all back to the topic of handicap stones and reverse komi: good lessons on cutting can really be learned in a reverse komi game. In fact, I think a weak player might gain a better understanding of cuts in a reverse komi game than they would with stones. Of course, only if they truly understand what their handicap means.

Many players are not only afraid to cut, they are afraid to be cut. And when they are cut they will do anything - no matter the cost - to save both groups. Handicap stones do not help fight this instinct, as Kageyama discusses later in chapter 2. He mentions a 9 stone handicap game he played with a student. The student believed that, as long as everything lived, he couldn't lose. This is wrong. He let himself get cut apart and lost because of his handicap stones. This same thing has happened to some of my opponents - I will give them more stones, but it doesn't narrow my margin of victory. They become overprotective of those stones and let me dominate all the fighting in spite of their advantage.

This lesson of sacrifice can be learned in an even better way through a reverse komi game. Sometimes, for the sake of the whole board, you need to make a sacrifice. If you don't understand what your reverse komi means, you'll still try to save everything. But if you know that you are able to give up something because of your territorial advantage (which is really what a reverse komi boils down to) then a cut can quickly become a bad cut for your opponent. And you will have learned a valuable lesson that can be applied to real games where you are ahead and your opponent tries to cut something off which can be sacrificed.