How would you handle this pincer?

chef · Post by **chef** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:37 pm

Thanks to this thread (http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7273) by lovelove (which rocks!), I tried playing the pincer joseki, the better way than what I was doing before, like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . 6 , . $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But what do you do when there's a stone on the star like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My two thoughts are how would I handle that and also should I have even bothered doing a kakari between the two stone and maybe opt for the other side of the stone.

The reason I ask is because I played this game. I won despite the beginning, but that pincer was UG-LEE!!! Actually the whole beginning was ugly

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:22 am

chef wrote:But what do you do when there's a stone on the star like this?
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . 1 . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . b c . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Hi chef, it depends on the rest of the board. Locally, W's choices include (a), (b), (c), and others.

In your game, you can consider jumping to 3-3 at R3 for :w8:

.
In your game, :b17:

turning at H5 makes a powerful shape for B, and a kind of broken shape for you.

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:28 am

Hi chef,

The diagram you posted is a bit different from the in-game variant (the black stone already in place is one line further, at a in the diagram below). Concerning your options, I agree with EdLee that you can either choose between invading the corner at 3-3 or going for a double approach. In your game, the double approach seems more risky, because black already has a few stones in place, and will welcome complicated fights.

There's something else, however. When I look at this diagram, I think black 2 is a bit of a mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . X a $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Something like this would be a more severe way of attacking:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . X a $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Even with the stone at a in the game, I still think white got off the hook. Settling the stone quickly by invading the corner seems the best way to punish black for his lackluster attack.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:42 am

As others said 3-3 is good to settle. Jump out is no good as the press is not effective as black already has that 4th line stone. See viewtopic.php?p=157576#p157576 for when jump is okay.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:08 am

Hi chef, for example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . 5 $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If W thinks a pincer in the :w5:

direction (say, :w5:

)
is useful for W, then W can jump out with :w3:

--
for example, W already has a stone upper right corner.

As always, we must look at the whole board to decide.

chef · Post by **chef** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:57 am

I don't think I'd try a double approach at the moment, since I haven't a clue how to do it, but as far as how the board looked, the SGF I posted was the whole game up until that point.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:10 pm

My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside for the initial corner approach in the game. :b5:

isn't some amazing wonder move, it's just a san-ren-sei like formation that wants another move to accomplish the same thing.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:58 pm

skydyr wrote:My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside

The usual suspects include:

Deep analysis
Mood
Curiosity/trial-and-error
No particular reason/arbitrary
Habit/instinct
Jealousy

chef · Post by **chef** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:56 pm

skydyr wrote:My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside for the initial corner approach in the game. isn't some amazing wonder move, it's just a san-ren-sei like formation that wants another move to accomplish the same thing.

Would that be considered a bad move? My thoughts are that giving this wall to your opponent would be a difficult thing to deal with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:37 pm

chef wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Hi chef, the above :b2:

is not very good, either -- the 2-space-2-space shape is thin and leaves lots of aji for W.

Just the keima reply is probably a better combination with the :bc:

and

stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . # . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |-[/go]

Also, in your game, B did not have the middle star point, as Hushfield already pointed out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , Y . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

chef wrote:Would that be considered a bad move?

is very normal, and a good move.

chef wrote:My thoughts are that giving this wall to your opponent would be a difficult thing to deal with.

First misconception: That's not a wall.
What would be very beneficial for you is tons of experience: play :w1:

in lots of games as W
(and experience :w1:

as B) to find out what actually happens; review, rinse and repeat.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:45 pm

In the game, b has a nice move at :b35:

to connect with his two center stones.

Unusedname · Post by **Unusedname** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:40 pm

chef wrote:I don't think I'd try a double approach at the moment, since I haven't a clue how to do it, but as far as how the board looked, the SGF I posted was the whole game up until that point.

I used to feel this way too!

But it ended up being pretty simple (So far)

It usually results with me getting the corner without being sealed in.

And then I have aji for later on the other side.

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