CEGO criticism and Catalin Taranu for EGF president

[Uberdude]

If Catalin wanted to demonstrate he would bring a new style of openness and communication to the EGF he should have posted his letter on this forum, the EGF forum, the various Go groups on facebook, to national go association mailing lists such as the UK's gotalk, his KGS profile, US eJournal etc. etc.

[Javaness2]

The letter was sent to the EGF members list, I would imagine that his actual campaign content will be distributed more widely. I do not think that this letter is the campaign. As is normal for letters sent to the EGF mailing list, and probably for most posts to this forum to be fair, most people do not read them. I would go so far as to wager that some member organisations just deleted his email without reading it, groaning at 'more EGF politics stuff, yawn'... As I suggested before, this is a systematic problem.

[Knotwilg]

I agree with Uberdude. We had a similar discussion at SL. If you feel the EGF is not representing the European Go Community and its communication is flawed, then involving only EGF members is a weird move. On the other hand it is a cautious and polite move in all its bravery.

I checked the Belgian forum. There is good coverage of the pro tournament but no mention of Catalin's grief;

[Hong Ny]

They can claim that they represent me, all they want.

They still don't do it.

[tapir]

I want to second javaness: Catalin discusses a lot of things, now taking up only a single issue (the only one that has belatedly been answered so far) is really just bad.

Just a few in no particular order:

1) professional organisations in asia disgruntled / not informed / shocked
2) european non-cego professionals betrayed
3) cego deal was made in breach of EGF constitution
4) some people quit due to this

...

each of these and much else in the letter merits a discussion, I don't see it.

[Bantari]

I want to second javaness: Catalin discusses a lot of things, now taking up only a single issue (the only one that has belatedly been answered so far) is really just bad.

Just a few in no particular order:

1) professional organisations in asia disgruntled / not informed / shocked
2) european non-cego professionals betrayed
3) cego deal was made in breach of EGF constitution
4) some people quit due to this

...

each of these and much else in the letter merits a discussion, I don't see it.

And yet, when I mentioned in another thread some of the points (esp. #1 and #2) you (and Catalin) bring, you threw a hissy fit and accused me of "all-american conspiracy thought-style". Now you wish to start an open discussion about it?

[Javaness2]

How the wounds fester!

Until the election platform appears, it is not obvious what Catalin intends to do. I think the EGF has a inbuilt problem in the way it work. The direct communication path is EGF board>>National Federation Boards>>[intermediate things like ligues or clubs]>>Members. For each step you expect to see some loss of information, when the information is communicated. The flow is generally 1 way, which is a bad sign. The new forum is a good step, but questions are not always answered there.

[kivi]

I want to second javaness: Catalin discusses a lot of things, now taking up only a single issue (the only one that has belatedly been answered so far) is really just bad.

Just a few in no particular order:

1) professional organisations in asia disgruntled / not informed / shocked
2) european non-cego professionals betrayed
3) cego deal was made in breach of EGF constitution
4) some people quit due to this

...

each of these and much else in the letter merits a discussion, I don't see it.

One thing that I hadn't heard in previous months was the #1 (about pro organizations). And when I first read Catalin's post I bought almost every argument he makes. I felt ready for a "Catalin for president" campaign. However reading Martin's post (that quantumf linked) it seems to me that when Catalin says "Asian pro Organizations" he means Nihon Kiin (a bit extrapolating).

I also realize, in the middle of CEGO EGF-pro business it is not a good idea to have a pro as president. He can't be impartial. But of course he and other existing pros should have been consulted, or somehow included in discussions.

[tapir]

However reading Martin's post (that quantumf linked) it seems to me that when Catalin says "Asian pro Organizations" he means Nihon Kiin (a bit extrapolating).

I also realize, in the middle of CEGO EGF-pro business it is not a good idea to have a pro as president. He can't be impartial.

Reading the linked mail, it answers exclusively to the questions regarding Ondrej Silt, which obviously involve Korean associations. Nothing there implies Korean or Japanese associations were involved in other CEGO matters, Catalin writes about many voices expressing shock about the league system independently of that case. As he mentions the betrayal of existing European professionals, this only involves one created in Japan (himself) and several created in Korea. I haven't heard from them publicly, but the question what the vaunted preference for CEGO-professionals means in practice has been raised much earlier. For international qualifications / grand slam it looks like they are allowed to play along for now (not much use to make a 2 player grand slam), but have to stand aside when more "European professionals" are available in future.

Something else about European. Am I the only person bothered by the absence of Ilya and Artem (two obvious candidates / due to unknown reasons) and Andrii (the 1st placed player in the training course in China) and Bogdan due to visa problems? Visa problems are not evenly distributed, especially not when you hold all qualification tournaments in Schengen countries, EGF has member federations in countries such as Kazakhstan, Armenia, Israel etc. that should offer the chance to other players to experience some visa problems for themselves.

Attacking Catalin on grounds of impartiality due to his affiliation to the Nihon Ki-in is kind of silly when the whole CEGO-EGF cooperation is centered on a professional player (Li Ting).

[Uberdude]

Something else about European. Am I the only person bothered by the absence of Ilya and Artem (two obvious candidates / due to unknown reasons) ...

Putting my hearsay hat back on, I heard Ilya couldn't get the time off work to play in the qualifiers. And my speculation is maybe Artem decided other things in his life were more important than flying around Europe to put some coloured pieces of glass on a plank of wood?

[kivi]

However reading Martin's post (that quantumf linked) it seems to me that when Catalin says "Asian pro Organizations" he means Nihon Kiin (a bit extrapolating).

I also realize, in the middle of CEGO EGF-pro business it is not a good idea to have a pro as president. He can't be impartial.

Reading the linked mail, it answers exclusively to the questions regarding Ondrej Silt, which obviously involve Korean associations. Nothing there implies Korean or Japanese associations were involved in other CEGO matters,

If you read, Martin talks about KBA/KABA being interested in EGF pros, they may (hopefully) even invite them to tournaments. He keeps talking about good relations etc. He is telling about this to explain Ondrej situation. But what I mean is from his explanation it doesn't sound like KABA is disgruntled/not informed/shocked, etc.

Something else about European. Am I the only person bothered by the absence of Ilya and Artem (two obvious candidates / due to unknown reasons)

They both were invited but declined to participate, or that is what I understood. I suspect Ilja wants to become Korean pro, instead of EGF pro. He has been studying in Korea, and I think he has a realistic chance. Of course he himself would know his reasons of not participating, better than my speculations. I am less sure about Artem, though I would guess similar reasons if I have to.

Another very strong candidate was Antti Tormänen. He was (and I think again is) insei in Japan.

Attacking Catalin on grounds of impartiality due to his affiliation to the Nihon Ki-in is kind of silly when the whole CEGO-EGF cooperation is centered on a professional player (Li Ting).

I am not attacking Catalin. I just said he is not a good president candidate in this situation. I would not vote Li Ting for president either. She is not trying to assume a president-like role, anyway. As I said existing (non-Cego) European pros should be involved somehow so their voices are heard, but I don't support making a European pro president in the current situation.

[tapir]

I don't support making a European pro president in the current situation.

Still, you make it sound like Catalin is doing special pleading on behalf of himself, when in fact he writes about the complete reversal of EGF policy from ignoring top players towards catering to (some) top players exclusively, that he doesn't agree with.

Catalin: By ignoring the other factions and focusing only on top players, by removing human assets that could open many doors in Europe , EGF is in fact faulting his own activity and is completely losing perspective. We cannot beg forever from Asia and if we do so at least we should have some respect for them and for ourselves. I do not agree with a strategy that cares only for developing the game for masses, as i don't agree with a strategy that cares only for the top players.

I am not completely buying into everything he writes in his letter, but he isn't alone w/ the impression that the whole contract was done hastily to not lose potential sponsors w/o sufficient whole-board vision.

[hyperpape]

Something else about European. Am I the only person bothered by the absence of Ilya and Artem (two obvious candidates / due to unknown reasons) and Andrii (the 1st placed player in the training course in China) and Bogdan due to visa problems? Visa problems are not evenly distributed, especially not when you hold all qualification tournaments in Schengen countries

It looks like Artem hasn't played tournaments since December (http://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player ... y=12662870). Ilya has not since January (http://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player ... y=12013342). Perhaps that is coincidence, but do we actually know their circumstances?

Would moving the tournaments outside of Schengen countries provide a net reduction in visa problems? I know nothing about visa arrangements in Europe and other EGF member nations.

[tapir]

It looks like Artem hasn't played tournaments since December (http://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player ... y=12662870). Ilya has not since January (http://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player ... y=12013342). Perhaps that is coincidence, but do we actually know their circumstances?

Would moving the tournaments outside of Schengen countries provide a net reduction in visa problems? I know nothing about visa arrangements in Europe and other EGF member nations.

My point was not about a net reduction of visa problem, but giving Schengen country people a fair chance to have some as well. Not necessarily a practical proposition, but to emphasise how horribly geographically skewed all this is.

- eligible top10 players not participating (ukraine, russia, finland)
- eligible players incl. the 1st placed in china troubled with visa (2x ukraine)
- non-cego professionals who will in future be "not preferred" (2x russia, ukraine, hungary, romania)

[Uberdude]

My point was not about a net reduction of visa problem, but giving Schengen country people a fair chance to have some as well.
Not necessarily a practical proposition,...

EGC 2014 Sibiu, Romania, EGC 2016 St Petersburg Russia? The subtext (if I understood your post correctly) of the EGC being some mean organisation that only holds tournaments in central Europe doesn't ring true to me. I agree it's good to move locations around and give people who normally have to travel a lot a tournament closer to home sometimes (e.g. in the UK we held the British Championship Candidates' tournament in Edinburgh last year to be nice to northerners who usually travel south, but as most players are in the south it makes sense to usually hold it there) but having the first year of pro qualifiers in central Europe seems fine to me. 2nd year too. If 10% of players live in far-flung land X then hold the tournament there about 1/10 of the time seems ok (well given the political/military situation I don't recommend having a tournament in Ukraine at the moment!).

but to emphasise how horribly geographically skewed all this is.
- eligible top10 players not participating (ukraine, russia, finland)
- eligible players incl. the 1st placed in china troubled with visa (2x ukraine)
- non-cego professionals who will in future be "not preferred" (2x russia, ukraine, hungary, romania)

The participating players were quite a diverse bunch too from various corners of Europe(/Middle-East) and yes some more central too. Just off the top of my head:
Finland, Israel, Sweden, Romania, Romania, Slovakia, France, Germany, Czechia, Hungary, Russia, Austria, Czechia, Poland, Serbia

Yes it's a shame Andrii Kravets couldn't compete, but I don't see EGF malice in that or Antti choosing to study in Japan or Artem doing whatever he does or Ilya having a job.