#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

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Bill Spight
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

If I were taking 4 stones, I might try this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 7 . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

For observers:
My last move was sente. At least, it was sente in a very general sense. I was threatening to take a large portion of the lower left with a move like E5 ( Maybe one D4 or F4 would work too )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc He can't let me do this.
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


So I'm not surprised when my opponent invades. Indeed, it is almost forced.
I am, however, surprised that he invades in the manner that he did. After my last four moves, I've got some strength in the lower middle, and I expected him to play a bit lighter and more flexibly because of that.
I expected the high approach like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . W . . . , . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . C . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


It leaves the options of the extension to J3, the second approach at C7, and attaching to the hoshi stone on top or on the bottom.

The move that he played is less flexible, and implies more of a commitment to one direction.

------------------------

So, what to do about it? At first glance, I see 4 possibilities:
1) Attack it from the left
2) Attack it from the right
3) Attack it from above
4) Ignore it and tenuki

Let's look at them one by one:

1) Attacking from the left seems proverbial ("Push your opponent toward your strength"),
but after a sequence of natural moves through 8, his group is as strong as mine, and has more eye space:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 X 7 X X W . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . 6 , . W . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . 4 5 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


And it turns out that he is actually pushing ME against HIS strength ( the circled stones. ) When I look at this on a large scale, I don't like it at all.

2) Attacking from the left has nice shape for my lower middle group. Running doesn't look good for him:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . W . 1 . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Even if he lives, I'm safe in the lower middle and making territory on the left. I can chase him with moves like 'a', and neutralize his right side influence while he runs along points that will eventually be dame.

Invading the corner is a second possibility:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X 5 . . . . , . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . W . 1 . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

...but I get a big wall, with central influence even stronger than his. At that point, I'm a bit ahead in territory, a bit ahead in influence, and my D16 stone is in the middle of the future contested territories.
I like this, but it simplifies way too much to be good for him. So he won't invade with 2 in the diagram above.

So when I attack from the left, he has to make the second approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . 1 . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


I have to think about this option a bit. I'll continue this line of thought later.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 4 . X 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 4 . X 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 7 8 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For observers:
I wanted to get this move posted while it is still daytime for my opponent. I'll continue a full description of why I play it later.

For now, a quick summary: as soon as we are done here, the play will shift to the left and upper left, and maybe to the center.

In all variations, he gets some territory. If I push from either side, he gets influence on the left. Pushing down from the top is the only way to give him some territory but get all of the left/center influence for myself.

BTW, it is not clear who has sente when we do move to the left side. There are some interesting variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . O . . 1 2 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he plays this, then tries to be first on the left, move 6 kills in all variations that I could read.
( My reading is not too good, so he might be able to live, but even then I get a monstrously thick group when he does, and I then have sente to harass 5. )
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

@Joaz

Do you think you have lost any of your 4 stone advantage, and if so how much?


@drmwc

Do you think you have caught up any of the 4 stones handicap, and if so how much?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Uberdude wrote:@Joaz

Do you think you have lost any of your 4 stone advantage, and if so how much?



If I could count that well, I'd be giving him a handicap. :)
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

@ Uberdude

My guess is that White has made up more than half a stone.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

As over one side (which is about a quarter if the centre is dame) of the board is essentially settled I feel white would like to have caught up one stone by now.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

By his willingness to sacrifice stones, Black has managed to dictate the pace of the game, so far.

As far as catching up is concerned, I expect that if drmwc is behind by only a stone and a half at move 100, he will have the edge. :)
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Uberdude wrote:@Joaz

Do you think you have lost any of your 4 stone advantage, and if so how much?



@Uberdude
I hope that my previous reply to your question didn't come across as too snarky. I really don't have the skill or knowledge to count a board that well.
I'll try to answer as best I can.

I feel that the game is going well for me.
1) I'm currently ahead on territory ( but that often happens at this stage of handicap games, so I don't put too much faith in it. )
2)I have no weak groups, and no significant bad aji. ( This is unusual at this point in a high handicap game - at least for me. This is the one thing that makes me think I'm doing rather well. )
3) The lower side is close to being resolved, and appears to be headed to a resolution that is stable, that does not concede too many points to him, and that doesn't leave me with any notable bad aji.

The upper and left sides do not look like they are going to be problematic for me, for I have the lion's share of stones there ( and certainly will when I get a wall on the lower side facing north. )

The only dark spot on the horizon is his big group on the right with influence over the center. It could be a problem if I get embroiled in a running fight that starts in the left or top side and moves into the center/right.

If that does not happen, I think that I'll win this one.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

@Joaz

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Uberdude wrote:@Joaz

Do you think you have lost any of your 4 stone advantage, and if so how much?


@Uberdude
I hope that my previous reply to your question didn't come across as too snarky. I really don't have the skill or knowledge to count a board that well.
I'll try to answer as best I can.

I feel that the game is going well for me.
<snip>


Right, I didn't necessarily expect you to count to come to a decision as to if/how much you've lost your 4 stone advantage. Indeed when I play I often can tell if I am winning or losing from my judgement of whether I did well or badly over the past moves rather than counting, and only go to the effort of counting if it's close or want to make some strategic decision like invade/reduce based on it. If drmwc's moves kept surprising you with their brilliance and you regret loads of your own stupid moves then you can feel you've lost several stones, but if all is going to plan and you don't regret anything then you probably didn't lose much. Of course your judgement of an ok result can be faulty, and you have cases like pro players winning every fight and feeling happy against Lee Chang Ho yet still losing due to his superior positional judgement.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Sorry for the delay!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 4 . X 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 7 . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit, post trigger:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 4 . X 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 9 . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 7 8 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Including a reply to underdude:
I have gained a little, but I'm still way behind. I am maybe now around 3.5 stones behind, so I have gained around 0.5 stones. B's 24-26 combination works well together.

Since it's still early days, there's no need to panic. My masterplan is to very boringly whittle away little by little. I'f still significantly behind in the mid-middlegame, I will contemplate overplaying more than usual.

As to the move played, invading at the 3-3 would give B around 60 secure points. I would be very far behind in territory. So I prefer to put little group on the lower side. A possible continuation:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . y , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X 4 X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 3 . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . O . . 1 2 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . z 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this, I need to consider if 7 at z shown is needed to live, or if I can play around y. I will probably play z because it is huge and introduces the opportunity for later counerattacks against the black wall.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Welcome back. :salute:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 4 0 X 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 9 . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 7 8 X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the spectre of P7 starts materializing. I need one more move around J8 to make it interesting.

On a more immediate note, the next question is who can extricate himself from the lower side first to play the big move around D10.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

A board with the numbers reset:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

For observers:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:... the next question is who can extricate himself from the lower side first to play the big move around D10.


If white plays it next, his group on the bottom is in trouble:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . a a X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can squirm around and force me to let him have the corner, but I get more points on the side, and my wall extends to points 'a' while attacking him in the corner.
That doesn't look good for him, so I expect that he will slide for safety like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After J5 and the slide, he is safe. :sad: Playing the 3-3 does not threaten to kill. So if I play there, he takes the side, something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . d X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now he has miai of points 'b' and 'c' for probable life, and my 6th rank wall starts looking neutralized. Furthermore, if he does get 'c', it enables him to rip through at 'd' or something similar.

So, my current inclination is to play the side myself, sort of Chineseish like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that his best attempt at space in the corner goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...where I come away with sente.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Move to follow tomorrow.

My choices are the attachment or the slide. If I play the slide, this is likely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am not confident of living without 33. Even if I can live, without it any aji against the the B group will disappear and the game will be quite territorial, which may favour B.

I can also attach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . b 4 X . a X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X 3 . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At first glance, this looks better for W than the slide. However, B has good aji meaning he is locally strong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 4 . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 O 2 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . 7 3 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B can pick up 2 W stones as shown. This means W cannot counterattack,so I think the result is good for B. (B may not play this immediately - I am giving it for info.) So I will probably slide instead.

I can contemplate a move in sente to stop this e.g.:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . 1 . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But it's a bit crude, makes B thick and eliminates a longer terms aim I have of cutting around here.
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