South Africa's request to join the EGF

[RobertJasiek]

Supposing the EGF would adopt African members at all (I do not know when - i.e., BEFORE the motion mentioned below - and how such can be decided, except that there is a deadline of 3 months for major motions by already EXISTING EGF members before the Annual General Meeting of the EGF), it will be necessary that a South African representative (proving his delegation right) of the SA Go Association will be present at the Annual General Meeting of the EGF when the motion shall be voted. Of course, such a written motion must be sent to the EGF Committee (or its secretary) in time, and I guess that the EGF should confirm that the form of the motion is sufficient.

[HermanHiddema]

I think this is an excellent idea. As more and more of the go world moves online, time zone distances are becoming more and more important, relative to physical distance. I would love to see a similar move in the Americas, with North and South America running joint internet events. E.g. the AGA city league could be reformed/expanded to accept teams from South America.

[Uberdude]

I think this is an excellent idea. As more and more of the go world moves online, time zone distances are becoming more and more important, relative to physical distance. I would love to see a similar move in the Americas, with North and South America running joint internet events. E.g. the AGA city league could be reformed/expanded to accept teams from South America.

South America is actually quite far East: most of Brazil and Argentina are GMT-3 which is closer to central Europe (GMT+1) than West coast USA (GMT-8).

[HermanHiddema]

South America is actually quite far East: most of Brazil and Argentina are GMT-3 which is closer to central Europe (GMT+1) than West coast USA (GMT-8).

True, but not an entirely fair comparison to take the easternmost time zone in South America and compare it to one of the closest European ones and one of the furthest North American ones.

The two European time zones with the bulk of the population are GMT+1 and GMT+2, while the two North American time zones with the bulk of the population are GMT-5 and GMT-6, so the easternmost GMT-3 time zone in South America is definitely closer to North America than it is to Europe.

[quantumf]

Supposing the EGF would adopt African members at all (I do not know when - i.e., BEFORE the motion mentioned below - and how such can be decided, except that there is a deadline of 3 months for major motions by already EXISTING EGF members before the Annual General Meeting of the EGF), it will be necessary that a South African representative (proving his delegation right) of the SA Go Association will be present at the Annual General Meeting of the EGF when the motion shall be voted. Of course, such a written motion must be sent to the EGF Committee (or its secretary) in time, and I guess that the EGF should confirm that the form of the motion is sufficient.

The proposal was sent to the EGF executive earlier this year (I think around February). The secretary has (very recently) confirmed that it is on the agenda for the AGM meeting next month. At this stage there are no plans to have anyone from the South African committee physically present at the AGM. That would be a huge cost that would be very hard to justify.

[RobertJasiek]

In the past, several new countries tried to become member, but were rejected until they managed to send a delegate to the AGM to support their motion simply by physical presence. So experience tells that AGM considers the latter important. It was the single most important reason for postponements. I know that flights are expensive, but if you want to convinve the AGM, it might be necessary to attend at least one congress or a few days of it.

[Knotwilg]

I'm living in Belgium, which hosts the capital of the European Community.

The European Go Federation is, in all senses of the word, remote to me. Today this is not a surprise but even when I was the president of the Belgian Go Federation (2000-2002) I never felt the EGF's presence all that much. I mostly remember the horrific quarrels in Italy, in which we were assumed to take a stance (by the Italians). Admittedly, I never went to the counsil, other people went in my stead. Their reports were not very convincing. A lot of politics, little action.

During my national presidency, I went to the clubs, to get a feeling for club life other than my own, to understand what members needed and what a community had to offer. (inter)National bodies shouldn't wait for their members to come to them. They should go out and meet them. The EGF hides behind curtains. Surely some people have done their best. It's a systemic issue.

I'm afraid the South-African hopes to increase its leverage through the EGF may be disappointed.

[DrStraw]

I think this is an excellent idea. As more and more of the go world moves online, time zone distances are becoming more and more important, relative to physical distance. I would love to see a similar move in the Americas, with North and South America running joint internet events. E.g. the AGA city league could be reformed/expanded to accept teams from South America.

South America is actually quite far East: most of Brazil and Argentina are GMT-3 which is closer to central Europe (GMT+1) than West coast USA (GMT-8).

Most people are surprised when they hear that the most westerly part of South America is around 80 degrees west and if you travel due north from there the first point in the US mainland which you reach is in the Florida Keys. It also happens to be within a degree or so of where I live in Virginia.

[John Fairbairn]

There is this... http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/questions.txt

The idea of a profile questionnaire to aid membership applications is fine, but I'm curious why the questions are what they are.

E.g. (extract)

10. How many players in your country?
11. What is strongest grade?
12. What is strongest grade of woman?
13. What is strongest grade of Under-16?
14. What is strongest grage of Under-12?
15. How many clubs do you have?
16. How many players do you have in your country?

I think I can guess the reason for the clumsy repetition in 10 and 16, but why does it matter what the strongest grade is for women (and Why is there no question to establish that women have equal rights?) or for youths (whose grades may be out of date within days)? Aren't numbers of women and of youths more important

Looks like a questionnaire cobbled together on the back of an envelope in the back of a bus in the back of beyond, in a heck of a hurry.

[quantumf]

In the past, several new countries tried to become member, but were rejected until they managed to send a delegate to the AGM to support their motion simply by physical presence. So experience tells that AGM considers the latter important. It was the single most important reason for postponements. I know that flights are expensive, but if you want to convinve the AGM, it might be necessary to attend at least one congress or a few days of it.

Thanks, Robert. I was a little concerned that this might be an issue. For an unusual request like ours, I would have expected some level of debate and discussion within the EGF executive, possibly with some alternative counter-proposals. I would not really have expected a simple rubber-stamping.

Does the EGF only meet once a year? Does a topic like this need to be dealt with at an AGM?

[Uberdude]

Can't you find a South African who wants to go to the EGC? It's a great holiday, as scores of Japanese who make the trip would agree.

[quantumf]

I'm living in Belgium, which hosts the capital of the European Community.

The European Go Federation is, in all senses of the word, remote to me. Today this is not a surprise but even when I was the president of the Belgian Go Federation (2000-2002) I never felt the EGF's presence all that much. I mostly remember the horrific quarrels in Italy, in which we were assumed to take a stance (by the Italians). Admittedly, I never went to the counsil, other people went in my stead. Their reports were not very convincing. A lot of politics, little action.

During my national presidency, I went to the clubs, to get a feeling for club life other than my own, to understand what members needed and what a community had to offer. (inter)National bodies shouldn't wait for their members to come to them. They should go out and meet them. The EGF hides behind curtains. Surely some people have done their best. It's a systemic issue.

I'm afraid the South-African hopes to increase its leverage through the EGF may be disappointed.

Yes, this is a reasonable concern. I don't think our goals at this stage are about political or financial leverage (if that's what you meant), they're about finding ways to improve our relationships with other go playing countries. Yes, sure, we could liaise directly with the national federations of various countries to set up things like friendship matches (and we may still do that), but it seems that the EGF already manages a number of inter-country structures and events, so we're hoping that by joining the EGF we can fast-track some of this interaction.

[quantumf]

Can't you find a South African who wants to go to the EGC? It's a great holiday, as scores of Japanese who make the trip would agree.

To be honest, until a few days ago we weren't even sure if the EGF had received our request. Given the close proximity of the EGC I doubt whether anyone will be able to arrange leave and finances at such short notice.

Having said that, we're experiencing a really grim winter at the moment, so a few days of sunshine would be awesome But at something like 1,300 USD a ticket, it's quite an expensive luxury. The South African Rand is particularly weak at the moment.

[RobertJasiek]

You need not hurry. If the motion this year is not accepted due to your absence, try again next year and try to be present next year.

However, the unclear issue remains whether the EGF wants to extend to Africa. If it does, then simply admitting a first African country as member might work. If it does not, you might spend a flight ticket for nothing. If it finds that it wants to discuss Africa seriously, some member country could demand a formal motion to be created in a following year to vote on whether the EGF shall accept African members; this could turn out a multi-year business for South Africa...

So what do you do? Simply wait for this year's AGM and see how the topic Africa is discussed (read the notes after the AGM). If matters are becoming promising, send a motion next year or the next two years, until it makes sense for you to send a delegate for the real motion.

[Javaness2]

Actually, you ought to register on the EGF forum to discuss this