Corner advice

[Aidoneus]

Playing Many Faces of Go. According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying). When trying this against MFG, it plays an extension to the second line, a sequence not found in its Joseki tutorial. I looked at Eidogo and found three instances, in one game the corner was then ignored by both sides, in one the invader made a one-point extension to the sixth line, and in one the invader played a hane. These possible responses look problematic to me because of the extensions that are already in place (say around the seventh or eighth line). Any thoughts on this corner position:

$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[EdLee]

W would like to hane D15. But does it work ?

Up to , we have two urgent vital points: C15 and D15.
B wants to hane C15 -- proverb, "hane the head of two (enemy) stones".
W also wants to hane D15; the same proverb applies here.
Thus in the joseki, is C15 hane.
B missed C15, so W would very much want D15 himself.

After hane D15...

Study what happens if cuts at C15 ? Compare this result to the joseki.

Also study what happens if hane E15; again, compare the result versus the joseki.

[Aidoneus]

Hi EdLee, thanks again for your input.

[EdLee]

Hi Aidoneus, you're welcome.

If you post what you find out about the two variations, we can continue to study them here.

[Aidoneus]

Hi Aidoneus, you're welcome.

If you post what you find out about the two variations, we can continue to study them here.

You're either a saint (sage) or a masochist.

I gave up on that game but here is what I meant with pre-existing extensions:

$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can't go past 9? Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b. And switching 8 and 9 looks bad for White, also, to me.

If you really want to critique more of my play...you can spoil my good feeling over the game against MFG that I played today after my earlier post in this thread. (With some of my unsophisticated observations! I thought that I would add variations with SmartGo, something I don't know how to do in MFG, but just didn't see the point since the mistakes I saw are obvious):

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4669

I doubt that I will ever get the chance to buy you a drink, or a beverage of your choice, so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight!

[EdLee]

$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 4 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b.

After W (a), what is the exact sequence ? It's important to see for yourself all the way to the
very bitter end, until the local situation is 100% resolved.
This way, we also find out if you have missed anything in your reading and follow-ups.
For example, right after connects at (a), what's B's immediate move ?
And all the subsequent follow-ups ? This was unclear in your reply.

[Uberdude]

According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying).

This advice is usually for when they are further extensions than in your later diagrams, i.e. around the side star points. In that case they don't change the local tactical sequences in the corner. In your example the extensions are much closer so the way to play the corner changes a lot (as you see d15 hane doesn't work as black can safely cut).

[EdLee]

so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight!

Thanks. Is this the new TV series based on the movie ? I heard about it.

We can first finish analyzing your corner questions (posts 2 and 6 )...

...As for your game vs. MFG, two moves stood out on first scan: is absolutely heinous, and can you find the correct local move for ?

[Aidoneus]

Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b.

After W (a), what is the exact sequence ? It's important to see for yourself all the way to the very bitter end, until the local situation is 100% resolved.
This way, we also find out if you have missed anything in your reading and follow-ups. For example, right after connects at (a), what's B's immediate move? And all the subsequent follow-ups ? This was unclear in your reply.

After Black at b, the White string has only two liberties to Black's four liberties. White C18 instead of B17, allows Black B17.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4671

According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying).

This advice is usually for when they are further extensions than in your later diagrams, i.e. around the side star points. In that case they don't change the local tactical sequences in the corner. In your example the extensions are much closer so the way to play the corner changes a lot (as you see d15 hane doesn't work as black can safely cut).

Thanks, Uberdude. This is why I said that I was probably misapplying the rule. I wasn't clear before trying it that those should be WIDE extensions. My invasion quickly turned out bad.

[Aidoneus]

so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight!

Thanks. Is this the new TV series based on the movie ? I heard about it.

We can first finish analyzing your corner questions (posts 2 and 6 )...

...As for your game vs. MFG, two moves stood out on first scan: is absolutely heinous, and can you find the correct local move for ?

Fargo was a mini-series loosely based on the movie. The final episode was last night on FX. Frankly, I felt that such a farce wore thin before the end.

OK, b41 was ridiculous--making an empty triangle, butting heads, etc. I should know better...

I don't understand what you mean about b69. Do you mean that White has some devastating response that I overlooked, or do you mean I should have played something else?

[Dusk Eagle]

There's a far better move for , and consequently , in your SGF. Can you find them?

[EdLee]

Yes, another local move instead of .
Another bad thing about , which you don't understand yet,
is it makes a broken shape for you.

Which brings us to your extended corner SGF in post 9:
your , , and were all mistakes.
(Same issues raised by Dusk Eagle.)
This is why we need to see your full sequence,
to see all your blind spots in the variations.

[Dusk Eagle]

I think is correct. There's an alternative but I think this one is better.

[Aidoneus]

There's a far better move for , and consequently , in your SGF. Can you find them?

Uh, I guess that there is no hurry to kill the two White stones, so instead of b10:B16 Black could play B14, protecting the stone at C13. Or do you mean a better move for eventual corner shape?

[Dusk Eagle]

Can the white stones live after Black B14?