The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:09 pm

peti29 wrote:rather the execution - which is for some reason very hard for me

The "some reason" lies in your basics, such as:

peti29 wrote:- created a lot of bad aji for white which I failed to use...

After the

-

exchange, you cut. ("Push-and-cut".) If you don't want to cut, or you cannot cut, then it's better not to push at all, because all you have done is reduce your own libs, and let B fix all his weakness with one move (if you don't cut).

Locally, if you're trying to kill B, the :w18:

-

exchange often helps B make eyes, so that's another reason we have to be very careful.

Your :b15:

is good: big shared vital point.

For :b27:

, R15 feels quite natural.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:00 pm

A few comments.

Edit: Corrected a variation.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:59 am

Here is another game. I think I should have won this one... but in the end, I lost.
I think I'm now better than 6k. It seems as if beyond the 6k wall there is a whole different game.

- I remember Nick Sibicky mentioning in his videos that :w2:

is a losing move, so I approached immediately. (But I didn't dare to play E16 later, which was also suggested in such a case.)

- :b9:

: my first instinct was to play R4 but it felt too passive. I also remembered this shape from a joseki but checking on Eidogo, it's not mentioned in this situation.

- :b15:

it's unfortunate that the white groups are now almost connected, but it was worth much to me that now I don't have to worry about life.

- :b39:

despite the ladder not working here I had plans: H-16 if white extends.

- :b41:

I was unsure of this move. I wanted to strengthen K-16 while maintaining pressure on the white stones.

- :b45:

I wanted to be strong here. Ponnuki is strong. Let's make a ponnuki...

- :b49:

The plan was to reduce white here a bit and then create an enormous moyo. But Q-10 was a bit too far away from the top black stones. And I did feel so, but I couldn't think up anything better. How should I have gone about this?
Or should I just leave it for now and go for the bottom left 3-3 instead?

- :b67:

Ok, that didn't turn out well. I'll just sacrifice that group now meanwhile reducing white moyo in the center and creating my own wall.

- :b107: must not let the snake into my territory

- :b117: the top left group started to feel worrisome. I wanted to prevent a deep intrusion and also secure the top left group.

- :b125: the losing move. I knew I should not play it, I felt that I should not play it, I still played it.

- :b141: Furikawari ftw. But it's probably not enough.

- :b149: the 2nd losing move. Should have been K-13.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:20 am

Why did you tenuki on :b29:

?

is slow; for example, F4 is bigger.
It's also not a ponnuki; that requires a capture.

:b53:

&

you got gote for no reason — like you passed.

:b59:

&

you got gote again!

:b63:

bad habit — force W to make good shape (if W captures, that's a ponnuki for W.)

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:41 am

EdLee wrote:Why did you tenuki on ?

is slow; for example, F4 is bigger.
It's also not a ponnuki; that requires a capture.

& you got gote for no reason — like you passed.

Yes. I was aware that :b29:

is tenuki but the only meaningful response I could think up was D-18 which would either continue by white playing E-16 or C-17. And I thought I would respond to that with D-17 and I didn't like that at all. But now that I'm writing this it appears to me that what if I don't play D-17? And I actually like that a lot! Am I right about that?

True.

True.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:48 am

peti29 wrote:Yes. I was aware that is tenuki but the only meaningful response I could think up was D-18 which would either continue by white playing E-16 or C-17. And I thought I would respond to that with D-17 and I didn't like that at all. But now that I'm writing this it appears to me that what if I don't play D-17? And I actually like that a lot! Am I right about that?

About blocking at D18: the corner looks big, to me.

If :b29:

at D18, W ataris E16, and you don't connect at D17: that's ridiculous.
(Hmmm, seems basic ataris and connects are still confusing
at these levels — re: :b63:

.)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:29 am

An example of sacrificing stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . $$ | . . 6 5 2 4 . . . $$ | . . 0 X 1 3 . . . $$ | . . X 9 . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 Continuation $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . X O 2 3 . . . $$ | . . X O X X 1 . . $$ | . . X X O O 5 . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In the above standard sequence,
W decides to give up :w5:

and an extra stone :w7:

before the cut of :w5:

.
(This is a very standard sequence, so actually
W is prepared for :w5:

and

even before :w1:

.)
W gives them up in exchange for the outside and the three forcing moves :w9:

,

, and

.

peti29 wrote:- Ok, that didn't turn out well. I'll just sacrifice that group

When we botch a fight, or mess up a life-and-death
and our stones die like at :b67:

, that's not a sacrifice.
We've just made a mistake and lost a group.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:35 am

About

. After

I need to protect the cut or those 3 stones die. I decided to sacrifice :b63:

in exchange of defending the cut in sente. Except: :b65:

turned out not being sente enough.

:b67:

is more than "I messed up, let's tenuki". I intended to use up the aji still contained in the to-be-dead group instead of trying to save it. I think it's important to learn not to cling to a troubled group - especially if I can get compensation for letting it die. It was not a planned sacrifice from the beginning, true.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:48 am

Well, I'm still not through the wall yet... It's almost funny how I get rebounded on the rank graph.

Is this game creative or just simply stupid? :

- The 5-3 surprised me and I didn't really know how to deal with it. Thus to avoid any possible traps I chose to delay the question.
Now (that I did some research) I think I should have gone for a cross game with :b3:

at D-4 and then go 3-3 (C-17) with :b5:

- I keep on building my moyo while remaining thick and taking advantage of my opponent's thin shapes but it's kinda slow and by :b21:

I'm massively overconcentrated. Still I couldn't resist :b23:

.
-

and the continuation is kinda desperate. I needed to do something and I wanted to prevent giving my opponent a huge center thickness in exchange for my small life in the upper left. I think this is not something I'm supposed to get away with...
I'm just messing around, finally being able to put some pressure on the not 100% alive K-16 group. But :w40:

is severe. Lucky for me, I think :w46:

is big mistake, letting me connect my separated weak groups. I feel somewhat safer now.
- But whites moyo is still too big so I go with :b53:

and create yet another weak group. Desperate times call for desperate solutions I guess...
- I was aiming at it, but didn't really believe that I would come to connect my bottom group with the center one.
- Then for a while I thought I was winning, but then came K-7 and white built a profitable wall. O-7 was some compensation but - according to score estimator later - not enough.
- I was more and more worried of a 3-3 invasion, thus :b149:
- I won the game thanks to K-15 which I spotted by accident. I missed H-7 later.
- I wanted to create a KO at the bottom left, but didn't succeed.

oca · Post by **oca** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:34 am

Hi peti29,
Just a quick question :
Is :b7:

a standard response in this case ? I'm studying sanrensei but never saw that kind of move in response to the keima approach in the upper/right corner...

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:50 am

- I won the game thanks to K-15 which I spotted by accident.

I disagree - it's the mistake by white in the next move. If he answered on L15 instead J15 he could still have connected. That makes indeed more than 20 points difference. In our kyu level it's almost always that kind of mistakes, which decide a game.

I missed H-7 later.

I guess it was on move 201? L15 looks also like a nice endgame (about 7 points IMHO).

Well, I'm still not through the wall yet... It's almost funny how I get rebounded on the rank graph.

That phenomenon sounds familiar to me and may be a hint that you are too much focused on rank. I suggest playing alternatively on a Korean server, where in the beginning your rank will most-likely random-walk in the DDKs - I'm currently still at 14k on Wbaduk's "Korea1" server ;-)

. Doing so teaches you (1) more accurate reading and fighting and (2) not caring so much about rank at all. If you come back at KGS after a while it really feels more relaxed. ;-)

MagicMagor · Post by **MagicMagor** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:03 am

Is a standard response in this case ? I'm studying sanrensei but never saw that kind of move in response to the keima approach in the upper/right corner...

The attach on top of the approaching stone is one of the few common answer moves to the approach. If you look it up in a joseki dictonary you will find several joseki-variations starting from it.

The goal of the attaching is usually pressing the approach stone down and building influence towards the side. Since san-ren-sei is an opening focusing on influence the attach is usually a good choice for answering the first low approach.
It is obviously not the only possible way to handle the approach while playing san-ren-sei but it is still a good way.

I was (and partly still am) quite fond of the san-ren-sei opening some months ago and i usually also played the attach in these situations.

So to answer your question in short: Yes it is a common move, at least in the realms of us amateurs and i don't think that there is a clear refutation so it can not be considered "bad". Maybe you are watching the wrong games, if you have never seen this move. (I think san-ren-sei in general is currently not so popular among pros)

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:14 am

Quick edit before post: MagicMagor was quicker to answer. Here's my thoughts anyway:

oca wrote:Hi peti29,
Just a quick question :
Is a standard response in this case ? I'm studying sanrensei but never saw that kind of move in response to the keima approach in the upper/right corner...

I don't know how standard it is. Eidogo.com has this to say about this response: "Kyu and low dan players should totally avoid playing this variation, regard it as bad move and instead play an extension or a pincer." But also: "The move should be played only if Black has a big moyo on the top side. The aim of this joseki is to make shape quickly."
This is a bit confusing to me as I do have a big moyo on the side and I do want to make shape quickly, and I usually have no problem playing this - probably because my opponents are too weak to punish the usage of this joseki for which I'm apparently too weak to use

? But I'm only joking here. I don't believe in such things. I play it because I like it and because it works for me. When I'll face a situation in which it doesn't work then I'll change to something else.

I like it because it helps me build a stronghold at one corner of my desired moyo. The kick would be bad here, the extension too defensive (and still leaves the corner open), and the pincer would make it hard to build the san ren sei moyo. Or so I think - probably there are several mistakes I'm not aware of.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:18 am

schawipp wrote:
- I won the game thanks to K-15 which I spotted by accident.

I disagree - it's the mistake by white in the next move. If he answered on L15 instead J15 he could still have connected. That makes indeed more than 20 points difference. In our kyu level it's almost always that kind of mistakes, which decide a game.

I missed H-7 later.

I guess it was on move 201? L15 looks also like a nice endgame (about 7 points IMHO).

Well, I'm still not through the wall yet... It's almost funny how I get rebounded on the rank graph.

That phenomenon sounds familiar to me and may be a hint that you are too much focused on rank. I suggest playing alternatively on a Korean server, where in the beginning your rank will most-likely random-walk in the DDKs - I'm currently still at 14k on Wbaduk's "Korea1" server . Doing so teaches you (1) more accurate reading and fighting and (2) not caring so much about rank at all. If you come back at KGS after a while it really feels more relaxed.

Well, if he goes L15, I go L16 and then he's still disconnected - unless I miss something.

Yes, move 201.

Yes, that's probably there. I think I should play more stronger players. But instead I tend to play weaker players (I dunno, in hopes of an easier game?) and end up losing to them

.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:21 am

MagicMagor wrote:
Is a standard response in this case ? I'm studying sanrensei but never saw that kind of move in response to the keima approach in the upper/right corner...

The attach on top of the approaching stone is one of the few common answer moves to the approach. If you look it up in a joseki dictonary you will find several joseki-variations starting from it.

The goal of the attaching is usually pressing the approach stone down and building influence towards the side. Since san-ren-sei is an opening focusing on influence the attach is usually a good choice for answering the first low approach.
It is obviously not the only possible way to handle the approach while playing san-ren-sei but it is still a good way.

I was (and partly still am) quite fond of the san-ren-sei opening some months ago and i usually also played the attach in these situations.

So to answer your question in short: Yes it is a common move, at least in the realms of us amateurs and i don't think that there is a clear refutation so it can not be considered "bad". Maybe you are watching the wrong games, if you have never seen this move. (I think san-ren-sei in general is currently not so popular among pros)

Sorry but this is wrong. Attach is a special purpose joseki and is played by weak players many many times when it is bad. Guo Juan 5p's advice is to banish this move from your repertoire until you are 5 dan as only then can you identify the rare occurrences it is good. Perhaps its popularity comes from its recommendation as a handicap joseki in that it's good enough if you start with loads of stones and is fairly simple.

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The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

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