Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

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oca
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Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

Post by oca »

Hi,

I am often in the following situation when playing handicap game as black, and I wonder if playing :b4: at "a" is correct in this case, when :w3: is not played at "b"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . . b . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
or should I play :b4: at "b"...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . 5 4 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'm not sure what's the best option...
Any comment welcome ...
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hyperpape
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Re: Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

Post by hyperpape »

First instinct is to think about this with tewari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . 5 4 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 4 . . . . |
$$ . B . . 3 2 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 5 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . # . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The second pattern, minus the marked black stones, is a joseki, and not always an ideal one for Black. In particular, you probably wouldn't play :b2: with the surrounding stones.

The circled black stone seems like a wash--on the one hand, it cramps white, on the other, it may be weakened by white's three stones poking up past the fourth line. So I am not happy with Black's result. I suspect you have actually made White's unusual move look not so bad.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . c . . |
$$ . X . . . b . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White's stones look awkward, and unlike if White had played at b, the move at a is now pure profit to be had later. I think White will also not necessarily be able to invade at c later. My instinct is to be happy for Black here.
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cloudbrows
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Re: Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

Post by cloudbrows »

I would think about playing 4 at a. White can't block, because he jumped rather than stand up, as is standard.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Then a or b seem like white's main options. Either way, good for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Where should Black play
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . d b . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Depending upon circumstances, Black might play any of "a" to "d".

"a" is a good attacking play which also develops the right side. It also leaves the other plays as possible follow-ups.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . 5 4 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
An argument against "b" ( :b4: ) is that it leads to the above shape.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 4 . . . . |
$$ . X . . 3 2 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
But if Black wanted that shape, why didn't he play :b2: and :b4: in the first place? ;)
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Re: Question about a kick's reply with one space jump

Post by drmwc »

There's one more option to consider in addition to the options in Bill's post.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yet another choice
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 4 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . . 7 6 8 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 0 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Continutation
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . a . . O b . . . . |
$$ . . . O X O X . . . . |
$$ . X . 2 O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

There are quite a few choices after this so I won't give more diagramgs (e.g. a or b for white).

Is this any good for black? It depends! It's a reasonable way of getting a moyo.

Tewari offers a clue:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Tewari
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 c . . . . |
$$ . . . b a 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . 9 5 4 6 X . . . |
$$ . . . 0 8 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Supppose black plays at b from Bill's post. Answering at 7 is a little eccentric if the outside is important, and may be a mistake. White 9 may also be a mistake - atari is potentially an improvement. Then black exchages a for b. This exchange is probably bad for black, but it's not completely clear. The move at c is now sente, so white will be keen to play here first.

So in the tewari, both players have potentially made a duff move (and white potentially has made 2). If the outside is important, my contention is that white's mistake is bigger than black's mistake, and so this may be playable for black.

Edited to add:
My move may be rubbish.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Overlooked
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 1 2 . . . . |
$$ . X . 9 7 6 8 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I overlooked white 9. wich seems pretty reasonable. Next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10 Overlooked
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 3 1 4 O . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ . X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Black 10 is the best bet. If white 11, black can claim to attack everything. So:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 2 1 3 O 5 . . . . |
$$ . 6 . 4 X O X . . . . |
$$ . X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White 11 is better. The black stone on the star point is wasted, so it's likely good for white. So black may choose this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 5 2 1 6 O d . . . . |
$$ . . 3 4 X O X . . . . |
$$ . X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . a b . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White's next move is difficult, with many possible choices. I suspect it's OK for white - the group should get away quite easliy.
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