Studying Go in China
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Studying Go in China
Hushfield wrote:
I'm bad with counting the values (never learnt it properly ^^), so here are just my estimates from biggest to smallest:
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Knotwilg
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Re: Studying Go in China
I could write paragraphs on how awesome it is for you to be there and follow this program. Let me jump into the endgame problem for now.
a - 13- gote
b - 8+ gote
c - 14+ gote
d - 3 sente for White
e - 10- gote
the plus and minus signs account for all the endgame kos that are involved in the follow-ups.
Moves a and e also have some thickness value for the groups involved while c is a pure endgame move.
If this were purely about endgame, I would pick d or c for Black, which gives a 24-24 score. But with the extra thickness I'd go for a, especially because I think White is behind and may want to invade the left side before actually going into the endgame.
a - 13- gote
b - 8+ gote
c - 14+ gote
d - 3 sente for White
e - 10- gote
the plus and minus signs account for all the endgame kos that are involved in the follow-ups.
Moves a and e also have some thickness value for the groups involved while c is a pure endgame move.
If this were purely about endgame, I would pick d or c for Black, which gives a 24-24 score. But with the extra thickness I'd go for a, especially because I think White is behind and may want to invade the left side before actually going into the endgame.
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Uberdude
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RBerenguel
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Re: Studying Go in China
Uberdude wrote:e isn't the best local move is it?
I've always thought the clamp was best, and recently learnt the attachment below the keima (at what would be F2) which can sometimes work better
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Uberdude
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Re: Studying Go in China
RBerenguel wrote:Uberdude wrote:e isn't the best local move is it?
I've always thought the clamp was best, and recently learnt the attachment below the keima (at what would be F2) which can sometimes work better
I meant for white: for black of course e is rubbish and clamp is the move (or attach if it works like you said, not here). At the other places the label is on one or both players move in that area, e is neither's. In terms of edge yose e is inferior to e3, though it could gain a bit in the centre around f4 but if white tries to make those points black will likely gain more on the left side so it's harder to factor that into the size calculation. Similarly b has centre points effect too.
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Uberdude
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Re: Studying Go in China
work in progress...
c: 14 and 2/3 double gote (assuminh white can't block and ko).
d:
e: ar e3 is 12 double gote (assuming white can't block and ko)
c: 14 and 2/3 double gote (assuminh white can't block and ko).
d:
e: ar e3 is 12 double gote (assuming white can't block and ko)
Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
Today we went to another school. The kids there are stronger than in the school we first went to. I played a 3-stone game against a boy that played incredibly fast. No matter how complicated the position, he never took longer than a few seconds to put down a stone. Most of his moves were excellent, some were not, but I got sucked into the blitz-speed and played very poorly.
The second game I played was 2 stones. I tried to focus on playing as slow as I had to again, and it went much better this time. He played some very questionable moves, which was enough to get ahead enough for some blunders in reading didn't make me lose outright. I got sente at the start of the endgame, retained it for the most part, and won by 5,5 points.
The second game I played was 2 stones. I tried to focus on playing as slow as I had to again, and it went much better this time. He played some very questionable moves, which was enough to get ahead enough for some blunders in reading didn't make me lose outright. I got sente at the start of the endgame, retained it for the most part, and won by 5,5 points.
Last edited by Hushfield on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
Sorry for the double post, the endgame solutions weren't displaying correctly in the other post. Below you can find the answers for the endgame problems:
General rules for calculating:
Area A
Area B
Area C
Area D
Area E
General rules for calculating:
Area A
Area B
Area C
Area D
Area E
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Uberdude
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Re: Studying Go in China
For d in terms of edge yose it is better (by 2 points and awful aji for white afterwards) for black to descend rather than hane and retain the option of wedging into the kosumi afterwards. However, black loses a little in the n4 area this way, possibly 2 points, possibly zero as in yose terms white n5 is possible so it's complicated to say which is better.
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Knotwilg
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Re: Studying Go in China
Indeed I missed 2 points in E.
I think the program looks very good:
- you get to study L&D, for real, not as a lip service, and for days, not just the first day after you made the vow
- you get to study the endgame, of which the abstination is another reason for weak players staying weak
- you play a lot of games and every game is reviewed by a pro !!!
- and that pro focuses on the things that make a difference, not on fancy ideas
In the unforgiving eyes of professionals, we 15 kyus and 2 dans approximately make the same mistakes:
- our moves are not severe; we are often happy with making a move that looks okayish proish
- we lose our focus, stamina and discipline and make outright blunders
The root of this is obviously our poor reading ability and our sloth in improving on it. We probably think a lot *about* the game. We should think more during the game.
Enjoy, Hushfield!
I think the program looks very good:
- you get to study L&D, for real, not as a lip service, and for days, not just the first day after you made the vow
- you get to study the endgame, of which the abstination is another reason for weak players staying weak
- you play a lot of games and every game is reviewed by a pro !!!
- and that pro focuses on the things that make a difference, not on fancy ideas
In the unforgiving eyes of professionals, we 15 kyus and 2 dans approximately make the same mistakes:
- our moves are not severe; we are often happy with making a move that looks okayish proish
- we lose our focus, stamina and discipline and make outright blunders
The root of this is obviously our poor reading ability and our sloth in improving on it. We probably think a lot *about* the game. We should think more during the game.
Enjoy, Hushfield!
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China
Quick note:
The answer for endgame C is a mistake.
tenuki.
After
White does not make a solid connection, but descends at 8. Later "z" is a Black sente.
----
Also, Uberdude is right that in region "d" the move for Black is the descent.
----
Edit: Oops! I see that if Black plays first at "z", White has to answer at "v". OTOH, either player is likely to play at "v" first, anyway. An alternative to
is "u", which avoids that question.
The answer for endgame C is a mistake.
tenuki. After
White does not make a solid connection, but descends at 8. Later "z" is a Black sente.----
Also, Uberdude is right that in region "d" the move for Black is the descent.
----
Edit: Oops! I see that if Black plays first at "z", White has to answer at "v". OTOH, either player is likely to play at "v" first, anyway. An alternative to
is "u", which avoids that question.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Visualize whirled peas.
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
Knotwilg: I think you're spot on about the program. There are two other dan-level students here at the moment, and they constantly get told to do more problems. Like, literally every game review. The last thing I heard translated from Yan Laoshi was even: "Like this, it doesn't matter how many games you play. You should improve your reading first. Do more problems."
Uberdude: I did exercise D first, and may indeed have fumbled it a bit. Writing the whole post took me over 2 hours, and it served as a great review of the calculating lesson. I'll check again with Yan Laoshi on what the best moves for both sides are. The value is 3 points though, of that I'm sure.
Bill: an important thing I should have mentioned the board is not "one whole board", but just the 5 local positions. There is no relation between c and the position above that. I see now I should have stated that clearly before.
Uberdude: I did exercise D first, and may indeed have fumbled it a bit. Writing the whole post took me over 2 hours, and it served as a great review of the calculating lesson. I'll check again with Yan Laoshi on what the best moves for both sides are. The value is 3 points though, of that I'm sure.
Bill: an important thing I should have mentioned the board is not "one whole board", but just the 5 local positions. There is no relation between c and the position above that. I see now I should have stated that clearly before.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China
Problem A.
Problem B.
Problem C.
Problem D.
Problem E.
Notice how special those 5 point sente are. I think that the position that I showed before is more typical of real game positions.
Edit: Thanks to Uberdude's eagle eye, I see that I composed problem A too hastily. It looks like I did the same with problem E. Watch this space.
Edit 2: Problem A revised. I moved some White stones from the third line to the fourth.
Edit 3: Problem E revised by raising some White stones.
Problem B.
Problem C.
Problem D.
Problem E.
Notice how special those 5 point sente are. I think that the position that I showed before is more typical of real game positions.
Edit: Thanks to Uberdude's eagle eye, I see that I composed problem A too hastily. It looks like I did the same with problem E. Watch this space.
Edit 2: Problem A revised. I moved some White stones from the third line to the fourth.
Edit 3: Problem E revised by raising some White stones.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.