#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

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SoDesuNe
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#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Great, here we go!

Good luck and have fun! : )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I replayed so many "classical" games that I almost always start with a double Komoku.
General game plan for the first moves is getting one Shimari and then it depends on what White does.
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topazg
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Have a great game :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I like playing against the Chinese more than I do the Orthodox, so I was going to take the lower right 4-4. But then I thought "I always seem to play Chinese openings in L19 Malkovich Games", so I played something off the wall instead. I chose this particular 3-5 because I'm aiming at the following

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . 6 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 6 . . . 4 O , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Well, something like that anyway.
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Woah, I have to be careful with the quote-button... nothing read, though. Sorry! ^^

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Double Komoku as explained, maybe he approaches right away at the top right. I will most likely take the open corner then because Go Seigen says the open corner is always bigger =D
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Aidoneus »

Wow, I finally get to watch one of these games from the beginning. Good luck to both of you!
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Haha, no problem, and thanks Aidoneus :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Predicting either

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


which I'd be happy with, or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Which I'd be ok with I guess too
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Thanks Aidoneus!

I'm also looking forward to an entertaining game : )


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Okay, taking my Shimari. Don't know if it has more relevance here because of the marked White stone. But I must say I feel more comfortable now to play 'a' in the future because I don't need to worry about a framework at the top.

I experimented with 'b' (high Shimari) a bit but I feel with White's marked stone I better stick to the low Shimari. I'm also more familiar with the low one ^^

I expect White to play 'c' now and I will attach underneath with 'd'. Then we will see.

If White plays 'a' or some freak Shimari (: D), I will take my second Shimari at 'd'.

'e' is also a nice alterantive. I'm pondering whether to pincer directly or to defend the corner and then playing a checking extension. Guess the latter. I like territory.
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Loons »

Good game guys.
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Cheers Loons :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As per previous post ..
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

@topazg.

Do you normally play 6 low? I usually play high here.
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Loons »

@Uberdude
Iirc, some [popular and old] book says when the shimari is low, you can approach low or high, if the shimari is high you must approach hi.

[/information volunteering]
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

I don't remember seeing low in recent pro games. Calling ez4u stats master!
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Thanks Loons! =)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e 3 b d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I guess pincer cum extension is a perfectly viable move here. Serves multiple purposes, works with my stones... no need to overthink.

I would try to settle my stone here as White, playing either 'a' or 'b'. If he plays 'b' I might think about changing directions with a counter-atari (sequence 'b', 'c', 'a', 'd', 'e') Could be bad, though, with :w4: in place. I will look into it the resulting shapes before I decide.

If he jumps, I most likely jump along.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

The 3-space pincer feels a bit soft to me (allowing :white: (x) ).
I'd consider a 2-space pincer instead, like :black: (y),
or maybe a 1-space high, like (z) :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . z x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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SoDesuNe
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Further comments on the position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Joseki is also (only?) counter-pincer at 'a' and extending to 'b', but I like to stay a little farther away from Black's thickness
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . 9 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 b . 8 a . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This would also be a very nice idea for White.
Positional judgement is not my forte so I would be hard pressed to find the right timing to kill the Aji in my corner. Furthermore White takes Sente to enclose his corner. How do I enter his side then?

'a' seems simplest. I don't like 'b' because of 'c', which works quite well with the marked stone, I think. So when I play 'a' then...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . d . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 8 . O . 6 . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . W . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


...something like that could follow.
:w20: seems pretty much Sente against my group but it also leave behind a supoptimal corner shape, I feel. Maybe exchanging 'a' for 'b' is better instead. But :w20: definitely makes me feel more uncomfortable ^^ (I don't know the right move, to defend my group.)
I don't think it would be good to play :w18: low at 'c'. The bottom is too flat then, makes the marked stone look oddly placed.

Furthermore, if it's going like this then White has Sente again. Black feels a tad passive and White will most likely get the last big move in the opening (guess around 'd' and then checking/extending on top and using/killing the Aji in my corner seem to be Miai). I don't like that ^^

If White plays this Joseki in the bottom right, I have to ponder about a different move then 'a', I think.



post scriptum:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 2 . 3 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . X . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Hm, when I get Sente after White lived in the corner is :b25: a good game plan? Hmm... There's a lot of space for White ^^

I guess I really want to play another line : )
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topazg
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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Uberdude wrote:@topazg.

Do you normally play 6 low? I usually play high here.


To be honest, no, but I was having a go at that new fuseki testing site thing that was posted on here recently, and it suggested it as playable, so I thought I'd play it and see what happened :)
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