#240 awef vs jeromie

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:25 pm

For Jeromie, after the game, or maybe much much later in the game.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:50 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is joseki and occasionally played here (the first record I noticed was Takemiya, but others since).

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:41 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:27 am

awef · Post by **awef** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:13 am

Okay, White 12 seems reasonable enough, although slightly inconsistent. If jermoie was planning on making an extension along the right side he should have just followed the joseki. I suppose he might still be planning to emphasize the center, just after making a base for his group. . My original plan was to approach top left corner

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm13 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I'm also tempted to make a small blocking extension on the right side

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm13 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I'll stick with my original plan of the corner approach and keep in mind the checking extension. Ideally I will keep sente so that I get to play both moves. Going to think about it some before I make my move, though. Some thoughts about the checking extension:

(Diagram below) If white gets to make another extension along the right side, his group becomes nice and wide and the top loses value for me since my extension to 'a' now has an easy invasion point at 'b'. However, in this line I can probably play black 3 to press white down on the top, but I'll have to look at the variations to see what the fighting looks like if white chooses to resist black 3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm13 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . a . . b . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm13 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 3 . . 'a' . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Diagram above) The checking extension allows me to set up a nice double wing formation. White gets to enclose a corner, but I get to extend and deny his corner its ideal extension. However, white 4 strengthens his group while renewing the threat of an invasion around 'a'

awef · Post by **awef** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't actually see the go diagram I posted. It just shows up as a hyperlink but only links to a blank page. Does anyone else have this problem? Anyone know how to resolve it?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:18 pm

It's broken for me too.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:31 pm

Seems to work when I copy/paste the diagram code. I haven't moved yet; just posting to make your move easier to see.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:04 pm

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:05 am

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:07 am

When to play s6 is an interesting question and arises from white's mistake at p6. First of all white shouldn't play it any time soon as it's definitely gote for him. However it is quite close to being sente for black. If black plays it and white answers with nobi (he can't block due to p6, well I suppose he can ko in answer to the atari!) then I think black is content with expanding his territory and eyespace and reducing white's in sente. Maybe it could be thought of as aji keshi as black does have other options there like the clamp or peep but those are pretty aggressive crazy moves that lose a lot in the local shape that are only worth it if you get some awesome large scale attack going with them. If white ignores then black get to play atari which is big and separates white's stones and removes their eyespace and territory on the side, though 12 could still extend to r13. (and connect answer is too ugly to consider with p6 becoming pointless empty triangle). If white does answer then maybe black should push one more time but this is not as forcing, though again if ignored black can hane and separate white.

So when to play s6? Maybe there is no rush to punish white's p6 as him playing there is too slow for now, but my first thought was for move 11. I think white will definitely answer now. Maybe push once more. But these exchanges make white stronger so maybe they are not good. But afterwards black doesn't need to play o3. There is a feeling that o3 can become inefficient if black gets s6 pushes. And if black does o3 after 2 pushes then maybe white will tenuki as we made him stronger, or extend further than r10 which is nice for him. So how about s6 after white 12? The idea now is that we make 12 inefficient if white answers. But what if white tenukis to take a big opening point like c11 for a chinese or c15 shimari? And then if we atari out of fighting spirit ("Hey, my move was sente you naughty boy!") white tenukis again with k16. Next black could r12 to attack r10, and white could resolutely thunmb his nose and tenuki again, maybe to f3. White just leaves his stones floating on the right as bait. It's hard for me to judge this. Is black being too slow and one sided or his he punishing white for not playing urgent moves before big ones? Are white's stones on the right like Go Seigen's clever dangly bait, or just stupid? He has certainly managed to make o3 look slow and unnecessary now. What do you think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 Tenuki fest = $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:08 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The primary strategic factors I considered for this move are as follows:

I think that building a group on the top or the left can be equally valuable, so direction is not my primary consideration. I'd slightly prefer the left because of my 4-4 stone, but
We're approaching the end of the fuseki, so I want to settle the corner quickly and play a big point elsewhere.
A pincer here is likely to leave me with two groups that need looking after, so it's less likely I can end in sente.
Joseki that lead directly to contact fighting are also less likely to leave me with sente, so I don't want to attach to his stone right now.
Black already has two big corners, so I don't want to make a move that lets him take take the whole corner.

I'm hoping for a follow up like this so that I can end in sente (I'm considering whether 4 would be better at a):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . O . . . 4 a $$ | . . . , 2 . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

After this corner is settled, there are still a few big points left on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . O . . d . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O e . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Other moves I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . g . . . $$ | . . . , . c . . . $$ | . . 1 b . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a e . . . . . $$ | . . f . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The two space low pincer at f is probably the most interesting to me, since it's far enough away that it's unlikely to come under direct attack. But that move would probably mean giving up the whole corner in return for outside influence, which I don't want to do at this point. Three big corners is just a bit too much, especially since my 4-4 stone is still vulnerable to invasion.

Edit: Just trying to make the language in my explanation a little more clear.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:42 am

skydyr wrote:@jeromie
jeromie wrote:This seems to work best with my previous move. Depending on black's next move I will either descend to s6 or attach at P3, building a wall on the right side or bottom. If my wall is on the right, I expect black to extend to r3. I'll probably play on the other side and start a fight.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you provide a diagram or two?

Sorry my answer is so late. I got one of my coordinates mixed up, which is why my statement was confusing.

Here's what I had in mind:

I get a wall on the bottom (2 can't be cut off):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get a wall on the right and then black extends (I should have said R10 instead of R3; I think this is the point of confusion.):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, I decided that the extension was bigger than a solid wall so I played at 3 immediately.

awef · Post by **awef** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:56 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We'll see what happens. I was considering also

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here Black 15 is an extension, a light pincer, provides support for the left side, denies white an extension in this direction and makes my checking extension on the right side more valuable since it'll create a double-wing framework. Furthermore, if jermoie uses his kosumi to create a wall on the left, 15 helps neutralize it. Still, I decided to play Black 15 in the actual game because the left side is the biggest open area.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm... I really wasn't expecting a tenuki.

I still have my eye on S6... I want to play it as soon as it won't be disastrous to ignore a black move elsewhere. In order to assess when I should play it, I'm going to try to figure out how many points it is worth.

If black plays first in that area, I count about 6 points for white and 14 points for black on the lower right side and corner. This is a net of -8 points for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . , O C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . . . C 4 . | $$ . . . 2 3 . | $$ . O . O 1 M | $$ . . O X M M | $$ . . , X M M | $$ X . X M M M | $$ . . . M M M | $$ . . . M M M | $$ ------------+[/go]

If white plays first and black responds, I count 11 points for white and 11 for black. This is a net of 0 points for white, 8 points better than letting black play. That would make the move worth 8 points in sente for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . , O C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . O . O 1 . | $$ . . O X 2 . | $$ . . , X M M | $$ X . X M M M | $$ . . . M M M | $$ . . . M M M | $$ ------------+[/go]

Black can ignore it to play a big move elsewhere, but then white gets to make a big monkey jump into the corner later (probably in sente, since white can steal the whole corner if black doesn't respond). A quick guess at best moves puts white at 11 points of territory plus one capture and black at 5 points in the contested area. This is a net of 7 points for white, or 15 points better than letting black play first. This means that for S6 to be sente for white, there can't be another move for black that's worth more than 7 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black 2 at 7 $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . , O C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . . . C C C | $$ . O . O O 9 | $$ . . O X 4 5 | $$ . . , X 3 7 | $$ X . X M 6 1 | $$ . . . M 0 8 | $$ . . . M M M | $$ ------------+[/go]

This doesn't take into account potential along the right side for white, which is also better if white gets to play first. S6 is a really big move, so it's really hard not to play there!

There is one other consideration: if I play a move elsewhere, can I ignore a second black move around S6 to follow up my initial move? Doing so would really ruin my potential on the right, but my stones probably won't die and it might be worth it.

I know this is a long discussion about one move, but I need to know how much it's worth to decide whether to play there or elsewhere.

After all of that writing, I don't think the timing is quite right for playing S6. Letting black use his two moves on the left to start building a large-scale framework would be very bad for white. I'm playing a one space high pincer at D13 in order to be consistent with my decision in that corner to emphasize the top. I think I can either get a big corner OR a really strong outside wall no matter how black follows up. If black ignores me to play S6 himself, I can take control of the entire left side with another move over there.

Other moves considered:

C13 (low pincer): I think this is a bit wishy-washy with my previous play, and black can split my stones apart. This would leave me with too many weak groups to attend.

C9 (two space pincer from the other side): This is too passive and again threatens to leave me with too many groups.

S6 (see long essay above)

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#240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie