#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:49 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:54 am

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:58 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:09 pm

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:05 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:17 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:44 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Is the tengen :b2:

well placed after :w3:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:59 am

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . d . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . c . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

"a" through "f" are all points that are generally interesting to me. However, he's wearing the trousers right now, so let's see what the big plan is

(

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:04 am

Maybe the last exchange was not strictly necessary...

Hard to think of a move now. I like to play :b41:

here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . b . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I'm pondering whether this is too slow.
Playing 'a' would feel good but my shape is too bad for this (something like White 'b' would hurt).

Additionally, there is the question, if my stones at the top are important? White is already alive, so they could only be used to make territory.
On the other hand, when White attacks them, do I have a good sequence to fight or sacrifice so that White does not get too much?

'c' to 'f' are also some ideas... I guess I should try to count and see if this can help me to decide where to play...

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:10 am

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:57 am

EdLee wrote:
Bill, do you think his tiger's mouth variation is slow ?
I wonder about the same thing. Moyo games are difficult.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Well,

wants to develop at :w42:

, but guess who gets there first.

Don't let the double keima get away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Whereas,

here has possibilities for development. I think that it is Tennozan. (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tennozan ). As for the weakness on the top side, as Black I would be confident of being able to handle it.

Edit: To be clear, I think that White can make gains there.

The hanging connection is thick, but it just makes the double keima more important.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:32 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

How is this even a thought?! So bizarre! I guess there is a different corner shape (black already has r6?) in which this allows black to kill off r5 aji in the corner whilst also having effect on the outside, but r5 can still easily live here. And even if it did kill r5 there are so much bigger areas. Looks like a danger of blindly following/misapplying some joseki shape you once saw.

P.S. And yes I think tiger mouth too slow as well, but the j17 weakness is quite annoying and why I didn't much like the dame cut of 33 prompting white's capture at 34. I was trying to find a way black could force white to connect on dame at 33 instead whilst also making the corner live in sente but couldn't find one.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:53 am

Life In 19x19

#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

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Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg