Discipline

[Ootakamoku]

Go tells me what kind of person I am?

When I play badly (most of the time) my go is greedy, careless, impulsive, jealous, emotional.

[daal]

Define "concentration". I don't see how one could lose it, barring interruptions.

I think the problem in this case is less about defining concentration, which is pretty easy: "the ability to give your attention or thought to a single object or activity." (Merriam-Webster's), but more about defining what that activity -playing go- actually is.

In Hushfield's marvelous journal about studying go in China, he tells us several times that his teacher, in pointing out a bad move remarks: "no weiqi." That is not go. Although his teacher is talking about a move and not about how it was decided, it seems to me that "no weiqi" could refer to this as well. Just putting stones on a board, even when following the rules is not necessarily playing go. Go is a game in which the most obvious solution to a problem is quite often not the best solution, and if you are simply playing the most obvious move, you are not playing go.

What I mean by "concentration" in this context is to be able to play a game of go all the way through without playing moves that belong to a game that looks like go but is actually another game called "play the first move that occurs to you." Playing go involves considering options, and although there may indeed be times in which there is only one move, if that's the only move you consider, you might well be wrong. When you don't consider an alternative move, you are not concentrating on playing go.

Then when the game starts, do nothing, but look at the board. This is separate, very much so, from thinking about the moves on the board, or indeed, any kind of thought at all.

So, for me, that's it. I define concentration, as keeping my eyes on the board. Period.

At first, I did not think this would make any difference. But, just doing this, has made a world of difference! Perhaps three stones worth!

So, I separate, concentration, looking at the board, from thinking, about the moves on the board.

I find, just by keeping my eyes on the board, things just pop up. My radar shows me danger signs, I see more ways to invade, I find better moves. All without thinking anything. When I do have to think, it comes easier, since, perhaps, all the visual information is already right there.

When interrupted, I give myself 60 seconds, of just staring at the board, before I make a move.

Thnx!

It seems to me like you know how to concentrate. Thanks for describing how you do it.

[Elom]

Go tells me what kind of person I am?

When I play badly (most of the time) my go is greedy, careless, impulsive, jealous, emotional.

Same here!

I once heard that humans are born with many innate qualities-- kindness, curiosity and willingness to learn (sometimes destroyed by the enviroment)-- but not patience. Try taking care of a one year old baby and you'll understand. Patience has to be learned.

I find that when I'm really passionate about making the best move, I rarely make as many blunders as opposed to just playing for rank's sake. In fact, this may sound a bit silly, but what I try to do is to "pretend" that I'm playing in a title match game (or otei). Weird actually but does the trick-- combined with keeping my hand of the mouse (takes some practice) and sitting with my back completely straight while looking at the whole board, it seems to make me consider every point on the board as an indivual, "treating each stone with respect", and considering more possibilities-- weather by reading, direction of play, or shape. The actual time settings of the game doesn't matter so much-- the attitude is what counts.

One more thing for reading discipline-- Tsumego (easy to difficult, in-depth search), my favourite.

[daal]

For everything that follows: my comments come from a predominantly Japanese tradition in Soto Zen Buddhism. There are plenty of other ways to approach meditation, this just happens to be the one available to me, and the one I currently pursue.

As someone who meditates quite regularly: I feel a lot better mentally and am just calmer when I manage to maintain my daily meditation practice. Or can I maintain the daily practice because I feel calmer? At any rate, if I manage to maintain my daily practice for extended periods of time (months), I do tend to notice a significant jump in my playing ability, and I start to feel more confident on the board.

One important reason for this is because of the way mindfulness meditation works. You focus attention on the breath, and whenever you notice yourself getting distracted, you leave the trail of thoughts you were chasing and put attention back on the breath. This happens dozens, if not hundreds of times during one extended meditation session. If you meditate for longer periods, you do this "coming back" so often the repetition really starts leaving its mark on the way your mind works. They are like mental push-ups. This exercise is designed to subtly increase the amount of space there is between impulse and reaction. Let me give you an example. A hungry person sees a bar of chocolate in his kitchen cupboard. Almost immediately this person will take the bar and eat it. Somebody that is trained in meditation will get the same impulse, and might still take the bar of chocolate, but what's important is what happens in between: the first person immediately reacts to the impulse, the second one might leave a second or two between impulse and reaction. I'm sure many of you know how many poor moves would not be played if you kept your hand away from the mouse for 2 more seconds.

One of the main things mindfulness meditation does through this exercise, is help us deal with the instant gratification desire. We want something and we want it now. If someone manages to work with this desire in a better way (notice how I didn't say get rid of it, the desire will always be there), I'm sure he can play closer to the upper limit of his current playing strength.

So, in short: yes, go can teach us things about discipline, but the way we discipline ourselves can definitely help us play better go.

Since reading your post, three other people have independently told me how they've been using mindful meditation, and how much good it's done them, so 2 weeks ago, I decided to give it a try.

What I've learned so far, is that simply acknowledging a distracting thought and then resuming concentration is often enough to prevent the distracting thought from spiraling off and demanding more attention. While my concentration has been better, it doesn't seem to have improved my go skill at all. I've been playing slowish games and can't complain about losing my concentration, but I've pretty much lost all of them.

Nonetheless, something important has changed. During a game, when the thought appears: "You are such a lousy go player," I acknowledge it and get back to the game, and it doesn't branch out to: "that's because you're essentially too stupid." Then, when the game is over and I've lost, these thoughts seem to have simply dissipated, and losing hasn't been making me feel bad about myself.

I'm going to keep this up.

[Hushfield]

Nonetheless, something important has changed. During a game, when the thought appears: "You are such a lousy go player," I acknowledge it and get back to the game, and it doesn't branch out to: "that's because you're essentially too stupid." Then, when the game is over and I've lost, these thoughts seem to have simply dissipated, and losing hasn't been making me feel bad about myself.

Glad to see you're enjoying it. And, for what it's worth, you appear to be doing something right. A popular saying in some Zen buddhist traditions is "Meditation doesn't give you any answers. It just makes the question go away."

[entropi]

I know it goes a bit away from the original post and nothing to do with go, but I want to ask the following:

I read about and tried a kind of zen meditation (counting breaths up to 10, etc). The difficulty is, in every article I read about zen meditation, they say 2 things:
1- do not control your breath, just be aware of it and count
2- breath deeply and slowly

There is a clear contradiction between the two. At first I thought it is probably just a detail and not so important, but when trying to exercise meditation, you notice that it is.

Can an experienced meditator explain me how it works?

[huhu]

Can an experienced meditator explain me how it works?

Psychotropics help a great deal >:-)

[Hushfield]

Can an experienced meditator explain me how it works?

Psychotropics help a great deal >:-)

I really hope this is a joke. Taking drugs and mindfulness meditation are two separate things. Meditation is about experiencing your mind as it is. Drugs are about altering the way your mind goes about its business. Don't get the two mixed up, or you might start confusing one activity for another. Quite a lot has been written about meditation and drugs. You can start here, but feel free to do your own research. Know that I am very biased towards the "drugs-have-no-place-in-meditation" opinion, and am not looking to change that opinion.

Entropi, your question is quite valid. There's plenty of contradictions to be found. That's just the nature of words. I take the two statements to mean something in between: don't force an unnatural pace of breathing upon yourself: like consciously holding your breath much longer than you would normally, or breathing in through one nostril and out through the other (how one would go about that without breaking the mudra you're maintaining with your hands is another matter altogether). I usually just count the breath that is already there. Again: you're not really trying to alter the breath, just experiencing it as it is. Somehow the breathing deeply and slowly happens on its own. If it doesn't, you can always try giving it a gentle nudge in that direction. Does that make sense?

[xed_over]

A popular saying in some Zen buddhist traditions is "Meditation doesn't give you any answers. It just makes the question go away."

That's the same philosophy I have towards exercise --> when I feel like exercising, I just lay down until the feeling goes away.

[Bill Spight]

Can an experienced meditator explain me how it works?

Psychotropics help a great deal >:-)

I really hope this is a joke. Taking drugs and mindfulness meditation are two separate things. Meditation is about experiencing your mind as it is. Drugs are about altering the way your mind goes about its business. Don't get the two mixed up, or you might start confusing one activity for another. Quite a lot has been written about meditation and drugs. You can start here, but feel free to do your own research.

This book is dated, but not a bad place to start. http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Mind-Robert ... B0007DK71M

There are a number of traditions of meditation and contemplation. (Zen means meditation, BTW.) They do alter your brain and your mind. There are also a number of traditions of sacramental and psychedelic drugs. There is no necessary conflict between the two.

[Bill Spight]

I read about and tried a kind of zen meditation (counting breaths up to 10, etc). The difficulty is, in every article I read about zen meditation, they say 2 things:
1- do not control your breath, just be aware of it and count
2- breath deeply and slowly

Meditation does not require you to breathe deeply and slowly. However, if your breathing is uneven and quick, you are probably agitated. Allowing your breathing to become deep and slow helps you to relax and concentrate. (Or not to concentrate. ) Many forms of meditation utilize breath control. This one does not. You don't have to count, either. Or focus on your breath, for that matter. All of those things are simply aids.

There is a clear contradiction between the two. At first I thought it is probably just a detail and not so important, but when trying to exercise meditation, you notice that it is.

Ah!

[entropi]

There is a clear contradiction between the two. At first I thought it is probably just a detail and not so important, but when trying to exercise meditation, you notice that it is.

Ah!

It is already very difficult to be aware of the breath without manipulating it. Counting may help for that. But the problem is, if I know that the deeper breath is better, how can I not alter it. There is probably a trade off between the two extremes (not controlling at all vs. forcing fully deep breaths), but the question is how to find that balance.

[Bill Spight]

There is a clear contradiction between the two. At first I thought it is probably just a detail and not so important, but when trying to exercise meditation, you notice that it is.

Ah!

It is already very difficult to be aware of the breath without manipulating it.

Yup!

Counting may help for that. But the problem is, if I know that the deeper breath is better, how can I not alter it. There is probably a trade off between the two extremes (not controlling at all vs. forcing fully deep breaths), but the question is how to find that balance.

Don't assume.

[moboy78]

Back to the original topic, am I the only one who, when I see my opponent play 3-4, gets this sick feeling in my stomach and the idea that my opponent will play some chinese variation?

[daal]

Back to the original topic, am I the only one who, when I see my opponent play 3-4, gets this sick feeling in my stomach and the idea that my opponent will play some chinese variation?

How is this getting back to the original topic?