#241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w2: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X C 3 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 C O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

Later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 C O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 X X O X 9 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 8 . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I hadn't realised black had such a big problem here before the ko.

Edit: But maybe black can semeai?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X . C O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . 9 . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X 8 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . 4 6 . 0 . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Last edited by Uberdude on Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Of course now I have to fill the ko. I'm not sure precisely what the ko threat's going to be.
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 C O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

so the new plan is this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 X 0 . . . . X X X O O X 1 |
$$ | . . O , . . O 8 . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O 2 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X 6 . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 X X O X 5 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
the only problem i see is that it seems to be too good for me, but what can white do to stop it? :O

if white plays on the top instead of defending the bottom hes gonna be in trouble (still he should i think the top is way bigger and its... gote again .-. anyway if the top is bigger he should maybe answer the ko thread or play a ko thread there to improve the potential of the top/middle):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 1 . . . . X X X O O X O |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X X . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . X X O 7 O X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . O O 6 8 . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
btw if i dont need sente i can safe the bottom like this, i think i didnt mentioned yet:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X 4 . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 X X O X 3 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 8 . . O 1 2 6 . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:w5: connects the ko

and so on... its gote and worth maybe sth around 15-20 points? not enough for a ko thread.

edit: i just noticed he can simply fill the ko, its not a one step ko at all, i feel so stupid ^^ so back to the beginning tt
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Mikebass14 »

Why would white play at 1 instead of at 2 in the first diagram above? Doesn't he win the ko by playing at 2?
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

@Mike
2 is indeed better, it's a persistent hallucination of xoxo's
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 8 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If I answered this ko threat, I would definitely lose the ko top right, so. I think I gained some points with 92.

Edit: I wonder how to use Q7? I would love for black to need to live on the right.
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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O 9 . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 8 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
well as alrdy stated, that was stupid as ..... ^^ prolly even game or small lead for white now...
just for you, to make it more interesting!
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

xoxo88 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O 9 . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 8 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
..
Black seems to be playing too close to his own strength.

I would have haned on the outside:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . B X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . 1 O . . , . B . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . B . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Uberdude
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

I agree with Joaz (or maybe f17 nobi if some reading shows the outside hane has problems, but you certainly want to go that side)
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O , . . O 9 . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . 0 . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X 6 8 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O 5 . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
My count's about black-54, white-40, counting myself as having six points on the left half of the board. I am trying to take sente here
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 4 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 3 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
I considered 98 @ 100, but it seemed a little flimsy. I should build a few points in the middle.
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@Loons:
Did you consider 98 at F17? If so, why did you decide against it?

Also, how many points do you think you can get in the center?
@xoxo88:
Did you consider a hane on the other side? If so, why did you reject it?
@other observers:
Doesn't anyone appreciate corners any more? :scratch:
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Uberdude
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

This is very strange shape when black extends at f17, white f17 was better.
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