Failure of free club culture

[EdLee]

Hi Bill,

Off topic:

We would continue until he was able to allow me to hold his arm up.

Very good demo. It shows how much "subconscious" tension
people normally carry around in their body.
In general martial arts terms, by the time a student
has a decent understanding of this inefficient tension,
even under very stressful situations, against very tough
opponents, they are about mid-dan level. It's not uncommon
to take about a decade to reach this level.

I asked him what the difference was, and he replied, "Wu hsin."

Interesting, how wu xin 無心 relates to shoshin しょしん 初心.
(Mixing languages here, yes. )

Bill, just curious: how long have you been practicing taiji ?

[Bantari]

One is a friend who studied taiji, at enormous expense, with a Chinese grandmaster. After months of assiduous effort and constant repetition he was admonished by the master: "You wave hands in air. Very pretty. But not taiji." Since the master's English was very limited it was pointless asking what he meant. But my friend is stubborn and he went away and examined everything he was doing. Months later he said he suddenly "got" taiji. He went back to the master and demonstrated his form again. The master looked, nodded and said simply, "Now you go away and practise." Several years later, my friend is now a successful teacher, over 80 but looking under 60. This is using the teacher as a signpost, and not as the map, signpost, and means of conveyance all rolled into one.

Nice example.
Each time I hear one like that, I think with confusion:

Would these few months be saved if the teacher simply *explained* what the student was doing wrong, instead of just saying "this is not taiji"?
On the other hand - is the knowledge acquired through the few months of self-evaluation deeper and more valuable than if the teacher just explained?
On yet another hand - are there students who *never* get it via self-evaluation, but who would have had a chance to master the subject with better explanation?
And what is the gain in either case?

To me these (and other) questions are the core of the difference between what I understand "western" and "eastern" style teaching.

[Bill Spight]

@ EdLee

Bill, just curious: how long have you been practicing taiji?

I started when I was 25, and practiced religiously for several years, and then fairly regularly up to age 44 or 45. Taiji changed how I move, so in a sense I still practice it. I still occasionally do the Heaven part of the form, and lately I'll do some one legged postures and kicks. Gotta keep up leg strength and balance.

[EdLee]

Hi Bill,

Gotta keep up leg strength and balance.

Yes, important.

[EdLee]

Hi Bantari,

Would these few months be saved if the teacher simply *explained* what the student was doing wrong,

I took the liberty to start a new thread --
I feel it's still on topic, but perhaps some disagree --
it also relates to a previous conversation we started.

Here's the new thread, Understanding .

[Uberdude]

I still occasionally do the Heaven part of the form, and lately I'll do some one legged postures and kicks.

How about a one-legged exercise?

$$B Black to play and kill by standing on one leg
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . O O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . X X . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play and kill by standing on one leg
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . O O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . X X . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

[tekesta]

@Bantari: maybe we have been discussing on parallel tracks. When I talk about "stone counting on small boards" it is obviously meant to introduce the rules in an interactive way. As soon as the newcomer becomes a serious student, then obviously 19x19 should be the size and probably already for some time.

Also, the emphasis has been too much on the alleged horrible teachers I had or witnessed. I really think a bad system breeds bad teaching, with the teachers being blissfully unaware of this. My account of it may have been too harsh. In any case I don't think any newcomer should be subjected to a sermon of wisdom for the sake of the teacher's feeling good.

That attitude extends well into the approach of serious students though. A student can spend hours of practice with 10 minutes of good advice. There's no point in drowning them in more advice.

@All: having said that, my original post advocated more, not less and so it may look as if I advocate stronger teachership. On one hand, yes, I'd like to see a few more dojos which are well structured and have a more methodical approach to teaching/learning. On the other hand, I concur with John F. that the real responsibility lies with the student. What a Dojo does then, is providing an atmosphere and culture where motivated students can thrive. Not all students know what this means though. They cannot always convert self motivation in proper attitude. A little help may be required, like "be on time", "respect your opponent", "do the review", "now it's time for tsumego" ... Some guidelines/rules.

I compared western go not only to eastern go (which I don't really know from experience) but also to other western sports clubs, like my table tennis club. I need to be on time, I cannot sit on the tables, when the coach explains we form a U in front of him, when we pair for exercises there's a system to avoid sparring with your best friend all the time etc etc

Most of these players are self motivated but they manage to keep their stamina thanks to an external structure. Without it, I know what happens: players show up when they like and play free table tennis or matches against partners of their preference. It's very hard for 2 motivated students to find each other and practice what is needed for their game.

This is also what happens in most go clubs. Free entrance & exit, drinking, chatting, games and at best a bit of review.

That's what I meant with failure of free club culture. It's not about teachers bombarding students with knowledge. It's about clubs setting up a structure in which students can thrive, scaffolded with requirements for the students' attitude.

This is where the difference between social club and training club resides. And I find it a bit disheartening

Though, what you are hinting at is much like a baduk dojang. Could such club with such a system prosper in North America or Europe, when not more than a few are aware of the game's potential? I know that there are large Go centers in a few European and North American cities that are all about the game. Other than that there are a few clubs peppered about the landscape...