A few historical game records

General conversations about Go belong here.
Post Reply
tekesta
Lives in gote
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:10 am
GD Posts: 0
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 81 times

A few historical game records

Post by tekesta »

Today I discovered this webpage with some game records. Unfortunately it's all in Turkish :oops: , but when I saw the first game record I was interested. It is dated 1253 and played between Nichiren and Nisshōmaru. I am replaying it and so far I find it to be just one big fight spreading all over the board. Perhaps this is how Go was played in 13th century Japan?

Here is the game record that caught my eye.

Image

This and a few other historical game records are found here. http://www.uzulmez.info/Files/ap2/famous.html Enjoy!
DrStraw
Oza
Posts: 2180
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Has thanked: 237 times
Been thanked: 662 times
Contact:

Re: A few historical game records

Post by DrStraw »

That's really hard to follow because many of the early moves would be considered bad these days. It took more longer than normal to find them.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
User avatar
oren
Oza
Posts: 2777
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Location: Seattle, WA
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 549 times

Re: A few historical game records

Post by oren »

tekesta
Lives in gote
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:10 am
GD Posts: 0
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Re: A few historical game records

Post by tekesta »

DrStraw wrote:That's really hard to follow because many of the early moves would be considered bad these days. It took more longer than normal to find them.
Opening theory as we know it today did not exist back in 13th century Japan, from what I understand. At the time Japanese players just abandoned the Chinese custom of opening with tasukiboshi (diagonally placed star point stones) in favor of an empty board, so the style of play shown in the game record is influenced by the old Chinese way of playing. Getting into a fight as shown in this game would be considered amateurish ignorance these days. (There are amateurs that play Go this way :-| ) Even in Dōsaku's time such a way of playing would've been considered boorish, as the importance of strategic opening moves was already being observed by leading Japanese players of the time.

I do find such a way of playing to be a refreshing change of pace, even if the strategic importance of those moves is hard to grasp.

From the game record it appears that Black won by resignation.
tekesta
Lives in gote
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:10 am
GD Posts: 0
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Re: A few historical game records

Post by tekesta »

It is probable that Hayashi Genbi produced the game and passed it off as a Nichiren v. Kisshōmaru game. His father-in-law was a Chinese language scholar, so Genbi would've been able to access some old Chinese game records. Though, I wonder if Genbi would've attempted something that would've hurt his reputation, especially in the very important world of Go in 17th century Japan.

Still, if the game record is actually a game between Nichiren and Kisshōmaru, the playing style indicates a very recent departure from the old Chinese way of playing during a time in Japan when the upper classes of society, especially the samurai, were eschewing Chinese cultural tastes in favor of native Japanese ones.
User avatar
Unusedname
Lives in gote
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:23 pm
Rank: kgs 5kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Unusedname
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: A few historical game records

Post by Unusedname »

What's up with the cut at M10? Seems like a much easier game for black. I'd ask a stronger player to look at that.
I think most safely at around :b72: all the way until W121.

As far as I can tell you make one super strong group and then white has too many weak groups.

How about :b84:? They fight so hard the whole time but he doesn't play K5.
Is that because of misunderstanding of shape? A strong understanding of shape? A lack of reading ability? Not having time to read? Not being willing to sacrifice?

What other move would be a strong indicator of strength?

Also I want to say it looks like a kgs blitz game.
Post Reply