So this just happened in a game(I was white)
In one word: terrible! But I know you can cut a small knights-jump in this position, so a large one should be possible as well. What exactly was my loosing move?
How to play this non-joseki?
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oca
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
I'm also interested on this one
I think i would have played the same as you did...
Maybe
crosscut at D17 ?
I think i would have played the same as you did...
Maybe
crosscut at D17 ?
Last edited by oca on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Violence
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
You know you can crosscut? How do you know?
For 11, black makes a move on the left side.
It turns out, you can't cut. You have to let white choose between giving you a large corner or a lot of thickness.
For 11, black makes a move on the left side.
It turns out, you can't cut. You have to let white choose between giving you a large corner or a lot of thickness.
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ez4u
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
Last edited by ez4u on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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paK0
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
Thanks for the variations.
I just realized my small knights comment was pretty unclear, I was referring to this:
I just realized my small knights comment was pretty unclear, I was referring to this:
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RobertJasiek
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
Move 6 was your losing move, which does not respect Q17 and fails to apply the basic principles for pincers. A close and low pincer should be supported on its side, but the opposite is the case: Q17 attacks that pincer. Move 6, if a pincer, should be high and far or very far.
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Uberdude
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
So are these professionals' moves similarly losing?RobertJasiek wrote:Move 6 was your losing move, which does not respect Q17 and fails to apply the basic principles for pincers. A close and low pincer should be supported on its side, but the opposite is the case: Q17 attacks that pincer. Move 6, if a pincer, should be high and far or very far.
Lest you say the black approach at top left supports the pincer, how about this one?
Or is the top right corner not being white important too?
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RobertJasiek
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
There is one exception: the pincer stone is offered as a sacrifice. Otherwise, the pincer is wrong and a different pincer (or none) would be better.
You can find pro counter-examples to everything, but this proves nothing except that pros also make mistakes. (I have not studied these two particular games yet.)
"Losing" is, OC, an exaggeration. It is in the 0,5 to 2 points loss range.
Both adjacent corners are relevant.
You can find pro counter-examples to everything, but this proves nothing except that pros also make mistakes. (I have not studied these two particular games yet.)
"Losing" is, OC, an exaggeration. It is in the 0,5 to 2 points loss range.
Both adjacent corners are relevant.
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Uberdude
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
How about diagonal?RobertJasiek wrote: Both adjacent corners are relevant.
Is your principle about a close and low pincer only being good if already supported on that side just for low approach to 3-4, or also other approaches to 3-4 or 4-4? What do you think of this move?
And this one?
Both have been played professionally many times. I was interested to learn from On Sojin 7p that he thought the first was a mistake and white has no particularly good continuation after black takes the corner, whereas in the second the low approach to the 3-4 is a good continuation if black takes the corner (so black often makes shimari, white splits or approach on the right, and then black gets corner). However, approaching the lower right 4-4 from the right after black takes the corner actually has a good winning percentage in ps.waltheri.net! Perhaps that is because Cho Hunhyun and Rui Naiewei seem to like it and they can win their games whatever possibly suboptimal opening moves they do. Or maybe it's just a fine move.
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RobertJasiek
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Re: How to play this non-joseki?
I dislike both. Black can (jump out and) lean on the left side, then attack the pincer stone / group. However, these two examples are the closest to still being fair.