Yose question

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Re: Yose question

Post by macelee »

Uberdude wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:If the only consideration is preventing the first line hane, why not here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 2 X 1 , . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------------[/go]




It's not the only consideration. Making the 4-4 stone stronger is another, preventing this sente sequence for example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 . . . O , . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . O . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 2 X 1 , . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------------[/go]



:b2: is not good. White can even play this if there's enough ko threats so black is 1 1/3 points worse off that the above diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 7 . . . O , . . . .
$$ | . . 6 5 . O . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 2 X 1 , . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------------[/go]
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Re:

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It has been known for well over 40 years that there is something wrong with the idea of unconditional double sente.
Hi Bill, could you elaborate on this a little bit. Thanks.


Sure. In The Endgame (1976) Ogawa and Davies discuss the divide by zero problem, which suggests a miai value of infinity for a double sente. Kano, in his Yose Dictionary (in Japanese, 1974) calls the following position a double sente, but he knows that there is something wrong with that. In a somewhat confusing passage he says that White has a greater necessity to answer than Black. In fact, it is a 7 point sente for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "Double" sente
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . . O X .
$$ | X X . X O . O O X .
$$ | . X . X X O . O X ,
$$ | X X X X O O O O X .
$$ | O O O O X X X X X .
$$ | . . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


See http://senseis.xmp.net/?DoubleSenteIsRelative .

It is true that I am inferring that the authors were aware of the problems before writing the books. But also one of the classical double sente, the double kosumi on the second line that either player can make and threaten to jump or slide into the opponent's territory, often goes unanswered in pro games. If you give that fact any thought you have to conclude that the play is not sente, much less double sente. :) Certainly the pros who did not answer thought that it was not double sente.
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Re: Yose question

Post by John Fairbairn »

Bill

If I may be a terrier chasing the quarry first flushed out by Ed...

1. You say the problems with double sente has been known for at least 40 years. I infer from your quotation of Kano's 1974 book that this is the source for "40 years". You add that his text is confusing.

1a. Two points to that. First, I didn't find his text confusing. He is not teaching anything in that section. He is just defining terms, and he gives an example of a "pure" double sente before the one you cite. The one you cite he presents to make a clear point: "However, although this is likewise called double sente you need to recognise that here a difference may arise in the right [to play it] depending on the position." He then goes on to explain that if Black has a higher priority move elsewhere, he may take that instead of fully answering in the cited position in gote. Assuming that's the portion you found confusing (and there's little else in the source), I'm puzzled because it seems straightforward to me - it's double sente but in practice White is more likely to get it. Also, it may be worth adding that he does not use the phrase unconditional double sente, though I accept that some such sort of qualification can be inferred.

1b. However, I may have missed something, and in support of that, the 1985 edition of Kano's dictionary reworks this section entirely, which perhaps indicates that he saw a problem with his first effort. But the problem may not have been in the position cited. Rather it may be because he appears to have taken a completely different approach to boundary play counting in general, and to my inexpert eye he has moved a long way towards O Meien, even using some of the same "rights" vocabulary. In the 1985 book Kano also goes well beyond his first effort in explaining why we need to be cautious about regarding the components of a double sente position as sente, and in support of that he cites a completely different kind of position where life & death are not involved, but aji is, and he adds a section on ajikeshi. However, he also clearly explains that this is really a middle game issue and not a boundary play issue and adds that "In a sense it can be called a pre-boundary play problem, but if we do classify it as a boundary play, it is one to which we will give the highest order of priority." And, also worth adding, he tends to be scrupulous in saying "double sente boundary play" and not just "double sente." Again, I see no confusion in this. So my question boils down to this: why should I care about things like dividing by zero, why should I believe there is any practical value in accepting there may (or may not) be some pedantic flaw in the concept of "double sente", especially when I do not add "unconditional" to the term and I do recognise the difference between middle game and endgame?

2. As I just mentioned, Kano appears to have moved towards the O Meien position even before O did. But O took it further and presents a completely different system - Absolute Counting. I'm in no position to judge on the relative merits of any system, but I think I can judge when one system is starkly different from another. On that basis, I fail to see how lack of mention of double sente in O's system is relevant. He doesn't see the need to use it, so he doesn't seem to regard it as relevant either. He doesn't even bother dismissing it. It's like a paper spoon. He just doesn't need it in his system, so why mention it. He's not saying it's not relevant to other systems of boundary play counting. Instead, he is saying his whole system is better than other systems, but he doesn't appear to have convinced the whole go world yet. Is that a fair summary?
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Re: Yose question

Post by Uberdude »

What is this theory of O Meien? Is there anything about it in English? Maybe that Zone Press Park book?
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Re: Yose question

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:What is this theory of O Meien? Is there anything about it in English? Maybe that Zone Press Park book?


To answer your second question first, here is the first of some threads on O Meien's approach by John Fairbairn. :) viewtopic.php?t=3008

O Meien's theory is basic combinatorial game theory (CGT). This is no accident. Go was an inspiration for CGT, and go players had come up with a number of the insights of CGT long before CGT was developed. :) (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?CombinatorialGameTheory ).

O's absolute counting (TM) is equivalent to miai value which is equivalent to CGT temperature (not to be confused with the English go term, temperature, which is related but different). In addition to sente and gote, CGT deals with ambiguous positions and plays, which I did not discover, but named. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AmbiguousPosition . (CGT does not use the terms, sente and gote, but it is easy to define them in CGT terms. :))

O's theory does not include the advances in ko evaluation made by Berlekamp in the 1980s and 90s and by me in the late 1990s. But why should it? Berlekamp published his methods in 1994 for mathematicians, in English. I published my approach in 1998, also for mathematicians and in English. A review by me of ko evaluation written for the 4th International Conference on Baduk was published in 2006, in both English and Korean. I would be quite happy if it were translated into Japanese and Chinese. :)
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Re: Yose question

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:Bill

If I may be a terrier chasing the quarry first flushed out by Ed...

1. You say the problems with double sente has been known for at least 40 years. I infer from your quotation of Kano's 1974 book that this is the source for "40 years".


Yes. I also expect that Davies was aware of the divide by zero problem before 1974. Smart man. :)

You add that his text is confusing.

1a. Two points to that. First, I didn't find his text confusing. He is not teaching anything in that section. He is just defining terms, and he gives an example of a "pure" double sente before the one you cite.


Here is the diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "Double" sente
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . O O X .
$$ | . . . X X O . O X ,
$$ | X X X X O O O O X .
$$ | O O O O X X X X X .
$$ | . . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


By absolute counting a play has a value of 20, with follow-ups worth 17 points for Black and 19 points for White. In theory this is a gote, but in practice it will almost certainly be a double sente, because plays worth 17 points or more are rare in go. The opening move gains only about 14 points, for instance. :)

The one you cite he presents to make a clear point: "However, although this is likewise called double sente you need to recognise that here a difference may arise in the right [to play it] depending on the position." He then goes on to explain that if Black has a higher priority move elsewhere, he may take that instead of fully answering in the cited position in gote. Assuming that's the portion you found confusing (and there's little else in the source), I'm puzzled because it seems straightforward to me - it's double sente but in practice White is more likely to get it.


I consider it confusing because it is Black sente, but in practice sometimes White can play with sente, too. Kano gets it backwards.

Also, it may be worth adding that he does not use the phrase unconditional double sente, though I accept that some such sort of qualification can be inferred.


Back in the 1980s I submitted an article to Go World entitled "There is No Such Thing as Double Sente". I had written it some years earlier, but had recently reestablished contact with Bozulich, so I thought I would give it a try. As of 2000 I had come to see that there is a well defined sense of double sente which depends upon the whole board. IOW, it is conditional. That's why I used the term, unconditional, for the traditional usage of double sente.

1b. However, I may have missed something, and in support of that, the 1985 edition of Kano's dictionary reworks this section entirely, which perhaps indicates that he saw a problem with his first effort. But the problem may not have been in the position cited. Rather it may be because he appears to have taken a completely different approach to boundary play counting in general, and to my inexpert eye he has moved a long way towards O Meien, even using some of the same "rights" vocabulary. In the 1985 book Kano also goes well beyond his first effort in explaining why we need to be cautious about regarding the components of a double sente position as sente, and in support of that he cites a completely different kind of position where life & death are not involved, but aji is, and he adds a section on ajikeshi. However, he also clearly explains that this is really a middle game issue and not a boundary play issue and adds that "In a sense it can be called a pre-boundary play problem, but if we do classify it as a boundary play, it is one to which we will give the highest order of priority." And, also worth adding, he tends to be scrupulous in saying "double sente boundary play" and not just "double sente." Again, I see no confusion in this. So my question boils down to this: why should I care about things like dividing by zero, why should I believe there is any practical value in accepting there may (or may not) be some pedantic flaw in the concept of "double sente", especially when I do not add "unconditional" to the term and I do recognise the difference between middle game and endgame?


IMO, the value is clarity of thought. O Meien does not need the theoretical concept of double sente. Neither does CGT. (I think that the proverb about double sente is valuable, but needs interpretation. In practice, such positions do arise.) I remember, as a 4 kyu, seeing a "double sente", a second line kosumi, go unanswered in a pro game. Tilt! Had I been playing a teaching game with, say, a 7 kyu who ignored that play, I would have said, "No, that's a double sente. You have to answer." Wrong! If pros ever believed that that play was double sente, they overcame that notion. Better not to learn it in the first place.

I do not think that Kano was the only one who was reevaluating the idea of double sente at that time. That it was problematical was already in the air.

2. As I just mentioned, Kano appears to have moved towards the O Meien position even before O did. But O took it further and presents a completely different system - Absolute Counting. I'm in no position to judge on the relative merits of any system, but I think I can judge when one system is starkly different from another. On that basis, I fail to see how lack of mention of double sente in O's system is relevant. He doesn't see the need to use it, so he doesn't seem to regard it as relevant either. He doesn't even bother dismissing it. It's like a paper spoon. He just doesn't need it in his system, so why mention it. He's not saying it's not relevant to other systems of boundary play counting. Instead, he is saying his whole system is better than other systems, but he doesn't appear to have convinced the whole go world yet. Is that a fair summary?


I have touched on this above. O knows what he is doing. He even evaluates reverse sente but not sente, which is a clarification. :) I don't know about his influence on others, but by demonstrating that you do not need the concept of double sente for evaluation, I think that others will come around to that way of thinking, sooner or later. :)

I have the 1995 version (3d printing in 2000) of the Nihon Kiin's Small Yose Dictionary. Unfortunately, it starts out with double sente, and even follows up with a whole board position with a number of "double sente". It shows two lines of play, one with Black playing first and one with White playing first. In each line of play the first player plays all of the double sente with sente. Tilt! Sakata would never have answered each "double sente", nor would Go Seigen, nor would Fujisawa Hideyuki, nor would Cho Chikun, nor would Gu Li, nor would Lee Sedol, nor, I trust, would any Chinese, Korean, or Japanese pro at the time. That is a prime example that shows the value of clear thinking about so-called double sente.

So far, so bad. But! There is a section showing a number of plays and evaluations. Unlike such sections in earlier editions, no double sente are evaluated. Why not? Surely because it was known that there is something wrong with evaluating double sente.
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Re: Yose question

Post by oren »

During a big board commentary for a major title match, O Meien's absolute counting book was being given away as part of the gift lottery. Takao Shinji was asked if he understood the book and he just said not at all.

I found it amusing.
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Re: Yose question

Post by Bill Spight »

Here is an example using Kano's practical double sente, which nearly always should be answered, no matter who plays first. But if there are four copies of it on the board, they are miai. Correct play (when there is no ko) is for each player to make a threat in two corners and to answer the opponent's threat in one corner, regardless of who plays first. IOW, to treat the opponent's play as gote. I have included enough variations to illustrate that the plays are not sente, I think. :)

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Re: Yose question

Post by Cassandra »

Bill Spight wrote:Here is an example using Kano's practical double sente, which nearly always should be answered, no matter who plays first. But if there are four copies of it on the board, they are miai.

This is either a contradiction in terms, or leaving the scope of action.

Considering "Sente" (especially "Double-Sente") in usual books on "Yose" has nothing to do with whole-board considerations, but has to be seen locally only.

For whole-board considerations you will have to consult a book on "Ô-Yose".

It should be very evident that the "Sente"- / "Gote"-relationship (when seen more globally) depends on the surrounding conditions.
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Re: Yose question

Post by oca »

Bill Spight wrote:Double sente depends upon the rest of the board. Typically each player's threat must be greater than anything else on the board. One flaw with older yose books is that they present certain positions as inherently double sente. It has been known for well over 40 years that there is something wrong with the idea of unconditional double sente. Still, writers often follow tradition and classify some positions as double sente. One who does not is O Meien, 9 dan, who does not even mention double sente in his recent yose book.


In the begining of the book I mentioned, there is actualy a kind of general advice that explains that sente is not necesserly "absolute".
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Re: Yose question

Post by Bill Spight »

Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Here is an example using Kano's practical double sente, which nearly always should be answered, no matter who plays first. But if there are four copies of it on the board, they are miai.

This is either a contradiction in terms, or leaving the scope of action.

Considering "Sente" (especially "Double-Sente") in usual books on "Yose" has nothing to do with whole-board considerations, but has to be seen locally only.

For whole-board considerations you will have to consult a book on "Ô-Yose".

It should be very evident that the "Sente"- / "Gote"-relationship (when seen more globally) depends on the surrounding conditions.


It sounds like you are criticizing what I said, but I am not sure why. The problem with the textbook treatment of double sente (O Meien excluded, OC) is that, even though both sente and gote have both practical, global definitions, and technical, "local" definitions, double sente only has a practical, global definition. Yet they treat it as though it had a technical, local meaning.

As I said to John Fairbairn, Kano got it backwards about his 1974 example. It is not a double sente, but, depending on circumstances, Black might not reply locally to White, rather it is a Black sente, but, depending on circumstances, Black might reply locally to White.
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Re: Yose question

Post by Cassandra »

Bill Spight wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Here is an example using Kano's practical double sente, which nearly always should be answered, no matter who plays first. But if there are four copies of it on the board, they are miai.

This is either a contradiction in terms, or leaving the scope of action.

Considering "Sente" (especially "Double-Sente") in usual books on "Yose" has nothing to do with whole-board considerations, but has to be seen locally only.

For whole-board considerations you will have to consult a book on "Ô-Yose".

It should be very evident that the "Sente"- / "Gote"-relationship (when seen more globally) depends on the surrounding conditions.


It sounds like you are criticizing what I said, but I am not sure why. The problem with the textbook treatment of double sente (O Meien excluded, OC) is that, even though both sente and gote have both practical, global definitions, and technical, "local" definitions, double sente only has a practical, global definition. Yet they treat it as though it had a technical, local meaning.

As I said to John Fairbairn, Kano got it backwards about his 1974 example. It is not a double sente, but, depending on circumstances, Black might not reply locally to White, rather it is a Black sente, but, depending on circumstances, Black might reply locally to White.

A large Japanese Go Encyclopedia shows (and explains) "Double-Sente" in the local context only. There are one surrounded group each, which will both die after ignoring the "Sente" move of their opponent (this is similar to your example).

I suppose that it will be evident that "Sente" characterises a move (the one and only) that is the largest one on the board (otherwise there is no need to answer "locally", just because answering would be a mistake).
This means that ignoring a move of "Sente" kind must always lose more than answering it. This evaluation might become extremely difficult, as a matter of course, if executed over the entire board. ;-)

If a local position is shown, we have to assume that -- for both players -- there are no larger spots on the board to play their first move. In this case, enlarging (or reducing) the number of a group's stones (in the problem's setup) will not affect the discussion on the endgame.

This is similar to the fundamental assumption in Tsume-Go that -- in principle -- all outside groups are alive.
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Re: Yose question

Post by oca »

While we are talking about Yose, here is a link to a new "free" video about endgame on badukMouies
https://badukmovies.com/episodes/endgam ... ?play=true
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Re: Yose question

Post by snorri »

Uberdude wrote:What is this theory of O Meien? Is there anything about it in English? Maybe that Zone Press Park book?


Zone Press Park doesn't touch on it in any way that I noticed.
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Re: Yose question

Post by mitsun »

I must be missing something in this discussion. How can the position below be called anything but "double sente"? And how can there be any ambiguity in assigning a value of 4 points to a play here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "Double" sente
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . O O X .
$$ | . . . X X O . O X ,
$$ | X X X X O O O O X .
$$ | O O O O X X X X X .
$$ | . . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Of course it is possible to construct a global position where playing or replying here is incorrect, but yose theory and terminology are all about evaluating local positions.

Tesuji dictionaries do not seem to find it necessary to include the disclaimer "this move is a mistake if there is a larger play elsewhere on the board".

If we look at the similar position below, it seems everyone would be comfortable calling a play here sente for W, or at least reverse sente for B. But again, there are certainly global positions where these plays would be incorrect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "Reverse" sente for B
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X .
$$ | . . . X O O . O X .
$$ | . . . X O . O O X .
$$ | . . . X X O . O X ,
$$ | X X X X O O O O X .
$$ | O O O O X X X X X .
$$ | . . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


What is the distinction which makes "reverse sente" reasonable and "double sente" problematic? Is it just the ability to assign a value in points per move (rather than absolute points)?
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