#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:36 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:44 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm84 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

As planned. The cut was too hairy. I probably need to shore up my big central thing - this is quite big and very nearly sente.

Next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O 7 X 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X 4 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . 3 a . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . b X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

3-4 is nearly sente and quite big. (4 at provoke white b.) I think I am strong enought in the center to then probe at 5. The 6-8 replies are quite passive,so may not happen. (It would be nice if they do occur).

Next I may do my fany probe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 4 . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O . . O . X 1 O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 X X . O 2 . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . 6 . . 3 X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Capturing the stone does a lot to shore up my position, and puts pressure on the top right black group.Descent at 12 above may be an overplay - hane at 13 nearly kills.

So black may need to defend at the top right with 12.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 7 O . . . a . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O 6 . O . X 1 O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 X X . O 2 . X O . O X X . X 0 X . | $$ | . . . . 3 X O . X X O . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . b . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

I now get the big endgame moves on the right. I have large moves coming up at a and b.
Black's centre-top group is not 100% alive, which increases the size of the move at a.

I am behind, but if this diagram happens, I am pretty close to catching up. If I can wangel getting both a and b, I am probabaly around 10 points behind. For this stage of a 4 stone game, that is an acceptable outcome.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm84 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 5 . . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:34 am

Trigger accepted.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm84 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . | $$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

As planned.

I'm pretty sure black's forcing move was a mistake. It removes this cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . 1 . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . 4 3 O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X 5 . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

As a result, my central group-string is becoming pretty strong. This in turn means that black's central group is weaker. For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . 4 3 O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X 6 X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X 2 X . . . . . 5 X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . 1 . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Black seems to lack two eyes. It's unlikely to die, since it has access to the centre, but aji like this is very nice to have. It is likely to give me some profit somewhere.

Edited to add:
The lower left yose may also become entertaining for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . 1 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . 5 7 X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . 6 0 . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . 8 O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O 9 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . O X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . O O X 1 X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . X X 2 3 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

If something like this happens, black collapses. SO black needs to answer the move at 3 in the first diagram differently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . 1 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

This works for black. But I may be able to come up with something entertaining by changing the move order.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:33 am

@drmwc

@obs

I would be looking at things like this as black, as it stops a-f working. But maybe white can clamp immediately or something, it's tricky...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm92 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 3 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 5 O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . a c e f O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | b X d X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

This kind of endgame hassling is the fun that comes from splitting groups, not playing the topological game as drmwc calls it.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:20 am

Uberdude wrote:@obs
This kind of endgame hassling is the fun that comes from splitting groups, not playing the topological game as drmwc calls it.

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:35 am

I needed to change to 10 posts per page to read the previous page.

Ubderdude:

I fully expect resistance. However, a lot of moves are conceivable and giving diagrams for them all was impracticable. Furthermore, it's not completely clear my move is 100% sente. Specifically, any of the moves marked at a maybe possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm84 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O a . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . a O . . . O . . . . . O a . | $$ | . . a . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | a X a X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . | $$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . 3 . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O a a . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

The position is complex, and certainly beyond my reading abilities! I think I avoid collapse in the lines I've looked at, but I may have overlooked something somewhere.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:37 am

My initial reaction is to set up the miai cuts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O C . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O C X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

So far, I can't see any reason why I can't do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 3 4 O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X 2 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

But it is complicated. I must read more.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

One of the more amusing lines that I have found, even if he does maintain a connection on the F file:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 ) $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X 2 O 5 X 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . 1 X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 7 X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc I get two eyes $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . O X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . C X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 9 . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O 6 7 C . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . 5 O 1 3 . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . 8 2 4 O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------[/go]

And his upper middle group is on the verge of getting trapped.
Sure, there are lots of unexplored branches in these last 2 diagrams, so I can't claim that it works. But it is one more way to solve the living in the middle issue.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:44 am

Joaz, you may want to proofread and correct the hidden part of your post (second diagram doesn't display correctly, because ']' is missing from the end of '[/go]'-tag)

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:56 am

I very much doubt white will make the h16 j17 exchange as it damages the top, but just connect. If black then cuts at a then b should be sente and fixes the c weakness for now, or maybe just d atari. Then white could run out his middle group (which also pressures black's middle) or try to kill the left somehow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 ) $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b O . . O d X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O a . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 1 X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:45 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Joaz's move is pretty good.

However, the continuation is unclear - I don't think white can cut. I atari, which bodges my shape, and ask questions of the centre group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O 4 X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O 3 5 X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 1 O . 7 6 O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 2 X 9 X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . 0 . 8 X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . a . 6 O O X X X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . 3 O 1 O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O 4 5 . a X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Next the two moves marked a are miai. Black may have issues if this happens. His best bet may be trying for a big trade e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm17 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X O 4 O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 2 . O O O X X X O . 5 . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O O X . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 1 . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

My group is in trouble, but so is black's. So this line requires careful counting. SO maybe I should do this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm17 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O O O X X X O . 2 . . O . . . | $$ | . X 3 X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O O X . 4 X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X 5 X . 1 . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

This line seems reasonable for me - black is in more trouble than white. Finally, if black doesn't cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X 7 X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . | $$ | . X 5 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

It's not clear to me where is best for me here. If I play 4 above, black still can't cut since it transposes. Black's next move is unclear - protecting on the right may be prudent. Then I can pretend to be alive everywhere and start the endgame. I could also contemplate all out war against the centre group.

If black doesn't play 5, he needs to worry about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 6 9 . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . | $$ | 7 X . X . . . 5 . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

If a move at a is black's sente, he can bodge against this aji by playing there first.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:07 am

Seems drmwc isn't looking as hard for good black moves as he is for good white moves. Isn't this a connection:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 6 O . . . 7 . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O 3 . O O X . O 9 X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X O a O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X X X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . O 1 O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Of course these threats are still nice as white can try to prevent that connection beforehand in sente, or if black ignores say m18 to live in the centre white gets compensation on the side.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 am

It is Xmas time: business is real busy and will be until the 24th. I will be back in a week or two.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:30 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm91 $$ ----------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck