#245 Kirby vs. paK0

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Bill Spight
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:@Kirby
Kirby wrote:This game, I want to win without overplays.

What happened to this plan? :scratch:
This has got to be one of the most overplayey crazy starts to a 9 handicap game I've seen in a while! :D

Are you sure they are not underplays? ;)

Sorry, Kirby. Just joking. Well, mostly joking. ;)
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Kirby
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Uberdude wrote:@Kirby
Kirby wrote:This game, I want to win without overplays.

What happened to this plan? :scratch:
This has got to be one of the most overplayey crazy starts to a 9 handicap game I've seen in a while! :D


You're probably correct, but more than my intention being an overplay, it's more like I am probably inexperienced in playing white in 9-stone handicap games - I selected moves that I thought made sense, rather than playing something I absolutely know doesn't work.

To give context, I can provide reason for each of the moves I played.

First white move - approach: I just approach his 4-4 stone. Seemed like a good way to start.

Second white move - extend: I think extending is better than tenuki, because black cannot damage too much in a single move.

Third white move - split black: After his kick, I thought he was playing well - so I figured I need to pressure to attack the right stone.

Fourth white move - cap: Again, I wanted to attack his stone. This seemed normal, and it's been played against me.

Fifth white move - attachment: After he started to move out, I could not see a good way to continue the attack - maybe I didn't read enough earlier. So I thought attachment to center stone, if I started fight there, would allow me to play moves to attack the right stones he was moving out.

Sixth white move - hane: I wanted to keep pressure on his stone, and this seemed like the best way. If he hane'd again, I'd double hane, and make shape in the middle. The white stone on the right still had aji to make a base.

Seventh move - again, he resisted my plan, and played knight's move. This move seemed loose, vulnerable to me cutting it. So I read out what would happen if I cut - but I cannot cut, because he can capture my stone in a ladder.

---

Which brings us to my last move - if I start some action on the top of the board, it acts as a ladder breaker. I can then aim to cut his knight's move, and start a fight on the right.


So in summary, when I said I didn't want to overplay this game, I mean to say that I wanted to read out variations and play moves that I thought worked.

The moves I have played so far have had reasons - but unfortunately, I haven't been able to find something that works.

If he keeps resisting as he has been in this game, it will be very short, and I will resign.


Probably, a better strategy would be to be patient, and just build strong groups... But I don't know how to play that way very well - maybe I'm impatient...

tl/dr: It's not my intention to overplay here - probably what you are seeing is my lack of skill in high handicap game.
be immersed
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I've looked at every conceivable ladder breaker, but none of the seemed to work. P12 might have been an overplay on my part, making a cut that depends on a ladder should have thrown me off. If he pushes now at P10 I'll connect at Q9.

Then he might be able to cut P12 off (my reading was kind of non conclusive), but as long as my top right corner lives this is still an acceptable result for me. Additionaly his groups are still weak, so the stone has some aji left even if it is cut off
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My strategy so far this game has been to try to set up an attack on the right. He has played it safe, and his group is stronger than mine, locally.

You cannot expect a good result if you start a fight in an area where your opponent has a strong advantage.

He ignored my attach, so I will profit locally on the top.

While I cannot attack his group well on the right, there is aji to help my groups if he tries to attack. So I cannot expect huge profit on the right, but I can expect to get something.

Let's go for "huge profit" elsewhere on the board :-)
be immersed
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

This is surprising, can he really afford to not get R14 out? His move is big but that stone seems irrelevant right now.

O14 and N12 both look good and since I'm stronger there even the crosscut might be an option. Reading time...
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:You cannot expect a good result if you start a fight in an area where your opponent has a strong advantage.


But this is a handicap game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, I think that :b1: is even more urgent, now that White has strengthened himself on the top side. Later :b3: looks like a nice attack. :)
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

@Kirby:
Sorry, I got a test coming up in two days, so I need to take a short break from this, I think I'll have a move by Thursday or Friday.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Sorry again for the delay.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is a good move. There is nothing really urgent on the board, so playing a solid move might be best. This stengthens my right side group and puts pressure on everything he has on the board.

Right now I like the game position. I wasn't too happy with P12, but now its ok. I guess I should have played this move right away, but I can't remember why I discarded it last time. If that is true, Kirby got K17 for free, which means one of my handicap stones is gone, but on the other hand it doesn't really seem to do anything for the rest of the board.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Uberdude »

@paK0:
You say nothing is really urgent: if you could play two moves at once in different areas of the board where would they be? How about 3?


@Obs
k16 only has 2 liberties so helping it is also urgent. His move is also an urgent area, but strategically rather than local liberties. k10 is also urgent: when stones are touching like that whoever plays first gets a big advantage. So I wouldn't say nothing is urgent, but 3 areas are. paK0 has played with good tenuki spirit so far, but he should realise that he is tenuki-ing urgent moves to play other urgent moves and that white j16 now is absolutely massive.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

I like pak0's spirit in this game. :) All too often Black just follows White around. The usual advice for Black in high handicap games is a defense:offense ratio of 70:30. pak0 is playing rather more aggressively than that. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is true that :w1: carries a huge threat. Black does not want to allow White to make a ponnuki. OTOH, Black does not really have much of a play in that vicinity. Maybe he should have responded to the attachment.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Make two, then . . . .
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It would be consistent with his previous play for Black to extend to 2 and then treat the two stones lightly. (OC, if he does play that way, why is he taking Black? :mrgreen:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To answer Uberdude's question, if I were to play two moves in a row, they would be these. :) After :b1:, :b3: looks pretty good. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In fact, the center hane is so big now that it is worth considering in this diagram, even at the risk of allowing the ponnuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I think that now would be a good time for White to play a center hane himself. :)
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Visualize whirled peas.

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paK0
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

@Uberdude

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . O . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I would still stick with the move I made and then go with one of the marked ones. (K15 and K9 being the first considerations).

I have a little bit of trouble with the direction of play here, since I can't really tell what Kirby is doing. I know he is better than me, so I assume he has some kind of plan, but right now it seems like he is just randomly throwing stones at the board. So for now the plan is to stay strong and keep him disconnected.
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Kirby
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I won't say his move is totally worthless... But I don't think it's the right move. This is the first time this game that I feel that I have a chance of winning.

His thinking is local, and missing the big picture.

Let's say that he captures the two stones on the right. How many points does he get in that area?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C W W C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X C C C C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X C C C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C C |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe around 20 points?

In the middle game, playing an extension on the side is at least 20 points. Eg. the difference between white and black here is huge:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So in the game, black had a star point on the top. White attached, and he didn't respond. So it's like the difference between this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . B . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That difference alone is worth 20 points to me. But then it's as if black did a funny attach:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And then white plays a natural-looking hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd say the gain I've achieved on the top is at least 30 points - more than the 20 he would get assuming he even captures the two stones on the right.

In addition, I still have invasion point at the 3-3, for which the two stones are useful, eg.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And in addition, there is still aji for living with the two white stones if I need to anyway.

Conclusion

1. His move threatens to take about 20 points - but my gain on top is more than that.
2. His move doesn't even guarantee capture.
3. I still have 3-3.
4. I still have aji to make the stones useful.
5. I'm finally feeling good about my prospects this game.

---

I think I have a good opportunity here. I'd best not squander it, so I'll think for a little bit. The obvious local move is another hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . W X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But there are two reasons I want to think about it more:

1. I don't want to make the same mistake he did in getting too focused on local. I already have profit on top. Is getting more profit the largest on the board? I'm not 100% sure, yet.

2. Once I atari from the direction shown above, I've spent my choice on the direction of play. For example, later in the game, it may be more useful to atari on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So if I play atari now, it might limit me later... But still, it looks like a good move.

There's also the group I have in the center which is flexible, but somewhat weak. And there's making something on the right with the marked stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Lots of options here. But I'm glad I have these options, because I feel that paK0 has given me a chance. He's given me a free gift certificate. Now I just need to figure out how to spend it in the best manner. :-)
be immersed
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C W W C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X C C C C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X C C C C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C C |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe around 20 points?
It's a little odd to me that Kirby would consider the value of capturing the 2 :wc: stones like this. At Kirby's level, he of course knows it's much much bigger than that.
It's worth about 20 points only if B treats that area as 100% territory and nothing else, which means B has absolutely zero idea how to use B's massive thickness after capturing the 2 :wc: stones to B's advantage... which is a possibility, yes. :) But still, a big assumption on Kirby's part.
paK0 wrote:but right now it seems like he is just randomly throwing stones at the board.
:mrgreen:
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Bill Spight
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

pak0 wrote:but right now it seems like he is just randomly throwing stones at the board.


Thanks to Ed for reminding me. :mrgreen:

Kirby wrote:His thinking is local, and missing the big picture.


Err, no, pak0 is not just thinking locally.

pak0 wrote:So for now the plan is to stay strong and keep him disconnected.


pak0's last move actually attacked three White groups. Funny how Kirby missed that. I do hope that pak0 will attack Kirby's center group. What a shock that would be. :shock: :mrgreen:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought strongly about playing another move on the top:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . W X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But like I said, this limits my options, eg. if I want to go in the other direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's hard to say at this point for sure that I want one direction over the other.

So I will make some action happen here, and the atari may come in useful later. Maybe not, but in that case, I can go in the other direction.

I can be flexible.

As an added benefit, this move gives me a local advantage in this area, since he ignored my attachment. And, it helps my potentially weak group in the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X W . . W . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Starting to feel better about this game! :tmbup:
be immersed
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