#244 Bill vs Ed

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Aidoneus
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm102
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X 1 . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Yet another move by White that I simply did not consider! Now I don't like making a hanging connection because of the peep forcing an empty triangle. On the other hand, it looks like I've lost still more stones and potential territory. And I thought that my last move was good before seeing White's reply...
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Uberdude
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Uberdude »

Oh dear, what a shame! Aidoneus got confused about which stones are important (squares) and which should be sacrificed (triangles). If white takes the 2, black makes g17 safe, kills k17 and gets the top as territory (and f14 big yose for later).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm102
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . # . . @ . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . # 5 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . 1 O 6 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O O X 3 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O Y Y 2 . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . 4 . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm103
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . 1 O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Drizzles today, in a self study section of a public library. :)
( Local time Wed Dec 10, 2014. 11:45 am. )
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Aidoneus, photo:
Hope you're feeling better. :)
image.jpg
image.jpg (94.45 KiB) Viewed 10876 times
( Local time Thur Dec 11, 2014. 5:27 pm. )
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Ed: Sorry for my slow response. I fell a bit behind on my four classes during my spell with the flu. I am now caught up until next week, when I will be giving final exams to my students, grading the finals, and preparing various statistical reports. So please forgive me if I am also a bit slow next week.

Somehow our game makes me think of an old vaudeville routine: Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch... (Before strangling his straight man.) ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm104
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I want to play on the line from J9-J11, but first I think that it is more urgent to save some territory on top. I don't think that White can play L16 because of atari at L15 and then L17. So I expect (what a laugh!) L15, to which I may cut at J15. Or, perhaps, White will just connect at J15 (empty triangle, so I don't expect the move), which might allow me to play at L15. It seems really urgent, though, for me to get a move like J10!
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Aidoneus, do you teach statistics ? :)
( Local time Fri Dec 12, 2014. 10:08 am. )
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Re:

Post by Aidoneus »

EdLee wrote:Hi Aidoneus, do you teach statistics ? :)

Next semester I will be teaching one of my favorite classes at Purdue: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics or How to Lie with Statistics. ;-)

I should hasten to add that I am no statistician! Although I took all of the undergraduate math courses for an actuarial degree (and passed the first two actuarial exams as a hedge before heading to graduate school), this did not include using any of the now standard statistical software packages. And in graduate school I only took one statistics course, which was so long ago that I could not tell you anything about the software we had to use for part of the class. (Except that I hated using the software!)

I'm happy to help if you have a conceptual question. I can give you the sort of explanations I gave to my step daughter when she was working on her doctorate, which I left for her to implement in whatever statistical software package her course used.

I could also point out books and videos that might be useful if I knew the nature of your interest. :)
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Aidoneus, thanks, no questions. I was just curious. :)
Earlier this year I met a retired professor of statistics from Australia! :)

Remember, 3 out of 4 dentists. :mrgreen:
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Bill Spight
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Re:

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:Remember, 3 out of 4 dentists. :mrgreen:


Not to mention 2.1 children. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm105
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O 1 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Mon Dec 15, 2014. 11:51 am. )
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Aidoneus
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm106
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O 1 . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


While I really wanted to play J10, L17 seemed very urgent if I want to save my stones and territory at the top. I also thought a bit about L16 but it didn't feel right trying to push from behind and leaving White more aji to cause trouble. Finally, I rejected the cut at J15 since it seemed that in addition to being very risky for my stones (with a move like G18 some time to connect to the left and encircle), I think that White could even connect to the stones jutting in at Q13.

If now L16, I believe that I should play M17. J11 is the move that worries me, though. Against it I may play K11 or L11.

The thing that really disturbs me about my play in this game is that I can never seem to get the initiative. Every sequence I look to play is ignorable or ends in gote. The one and only time I thought that I was getting the initiative (on the right) ended up getting myself cut and killed on the left! :o
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Uberdude »

Aidoneus wrote: I also thought a bit about L16 but it didn't feel right trying to push from behind and leaving White more aji to cause trouble.


Actually L16 is better and leaves less aji, as it is connected but this L17 leaves a cut which gives white some nice endgame if Aidoneus plays m17 as he says (m17 could be j17 to avoid this, but then white has a nice move at m17). Pushing from behind is not bad here as if white extends at m15 (slow, and needs j15 first) there is no threat due to n17. And you don't need to take a liberty from k17 as it's just dead already.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm106
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 7 8 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X 6 5 O 1 3 X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . b 4 X X 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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drmwc
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Re: Re:

Post by drmwc »

Bill Spight wrote:
EdLee wrote:Remember, 3 out of 4 dentists. :mrgreen:


Not to mention 2.1 children. ;)



And around 1.99 legs...


This post uses some form of mean, and none of this median or mode nonsense... :)
Last edited by drmwc on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Bill Spight »

Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm106
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O 1 . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . . O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Finally, I rejected the cut at J15 since it seemed that in addition to being very risky for my stones (with a move like G18 some time to connect to the left and encircle), I think that White could even connect to the stones jutting in at Q13.


I tell people that if they do not cut at J-15 they are not playing go. OC, that is an exaggeration. It could lead to disaster, especially as Black is taking six stones. But remember the proverbs,

Faint heart ne'er won fair lady.


and

De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!


and

Better to die lie a lion than to live like a dog.


Also

Divide and conquer!


:)

The thing that really disturbs me about my play in this game is that I can never seem to get the initiative. Every sequence I look to play is ignorable or ends in gote.


This fight is too difficult for you to read out. Maybe even too difficult for Ed to read out. If you want to stick with what you can read out, try tic-tac-toe. ;) If you want to get the initiative, seize it.

The one and only time I thought that I was getting the initiative (on the right) ended up getting myself cut and killed on the left! :o


Well, you ignored the cut and White played it to good effect. Now White is ignoring your cut. I rather think that the cut is not ignorable, nor that it will end in gote for you. Sure it is risky, but it is risky for White, too. Can he kill your stones? Can he connect out? Make him prove it. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Cutting with :b1: seemed a natural move.
( I thought most likely B would cut. )
I was studying the variations from here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O 3 . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . 1 O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Tue Dec 16, 2014. 11:07 am. )
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