How much does Fuseki matter?

[Pippen]

This question goes to 5d+ people.

Whenever I am on a losing streak I question my fuseki-style (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki). I like to play it, but I wouldn't like it if it cost me a significant amount of games. I am 1d-KGS and 4d/5d-Tygem, aiming maybe to become 3d-KGS and 6d-Tygem one day (I don't care to become stronger than that since it would mean to put too much work into a game). In that range of strength, would u say that my fuseki hurt my chances significantly?

[Uberdude]

5d+ in what system?

[Pippen]

5d+ in what system?

KGS. My idea behind it is that only players 2-3 stones stronger than me may be able to evaluate the situation. What's your take for instance?

[RobertJasiek]

Your choice of a specific opening does not matter except for your mistakes or your significantly weaker / stronger understanding of the specific opening than your opponents. Therefore, it can help to avoid your inferior and choose your superior specific openings.

From 1k/1d to 3d/5d, there can be a great difference in understanding of the opening. If you have not spent your 1000 hours on studying openings, do so now. It helps a lot. Study all kinds of specific openings so that you understand all. Study the transition into the middle game and the use of the specific openings in the middle game.

A 5d understanding the opening will practically always beat the 1d not understanding the opening simply because the 5d's better understanding of the opening suffices to create a winning position. The 5d can then maintain his lead easily, unless he becomes bored and therefore careless during the middle game. A 5d with good positional judgement will notice and bring home each 3 points lead established against a 1d during the opening. (I have successfully brought home 1 point leads against 1d players, but this is risky.) It requires a good understanding of the opening to notice small leads and know how to maintain them during the middle game. Do not think that a 1d can trick the 5d by sheer fighting (such tricks can work only in fast server games); the 5d can only beat himself by tiredness or laziness.

OC, no opening understanding at all can be desastrous easily, but this misses the point. The point of superior opening understanding is the ability to create a small early lead while the weaker opponent would not notice anything at all until the late middle game. However small the lead is, it suffices for winning. Hence, it does not matter how few points you lose during the opening. Lose some at all during the opening and you lose the game against the significantly stronger opponent. Therefore, the opening matters very much and Japanese pros with long thinking time spend most of their time during the opening. Among strong players, losing the opening almost equals losing the game, so both players need to survive the opening by creating an equal early middle game position.

There are those very young 4d/5d players without joseki and opening knowledge and with every fighting skill. Against a 5d with both solid opening and fighting knowledge, they almost always lose. The strongest kids surpass the 5d only by also overcoming their opening knowledge gaps.

[Kirby]

Personally, I feel it's more beneficial to analyze mistakes made in a specific game. Maybe you fell behind in the opening. Maybe you misread during the middle game and lost a group. Maybe something else.

You can fall behind in several ways, so it's hard to make a generalized statement without looking at a specific loss.

[Bill Spight]

This question goes to 5d+ people.

Whenever I am on a losing streak I question my fuseki-style (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki). I like to play it, but I wouldn't like it if it cost me a significant amount of games. I am 1d-KGS and 4d/5d-Tygem, aiming maybe to become 3d-KGS and 6d-Tygem one day (I don't care to become stronger than that since it would mean to put too much work into a game). In that range of strength, would u say that my fuseki hurt my chances significantly?

No. If you are just talking about playing on the side early.

OTOH, my impression from the recent Pippen vs. the World game is that your fuseki in general is a bit thin.

[Pippen]

Your choice of a specific opening does not matter except for your mistakes or your significantly weaker / stronger understanding of the specific opening than your opponents. Therefore, it can help to avoid your inferior and choose your superior specific openings.

What's your take on the Split-Fuseki (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki)? How inferior is it in your opinion.

[Uberdude]

Your choice of a specific opening does not matter except for your mistakes or your significantly weaker / stronger understanding of the specific opening than your opponents. Therefore, it can help to avoid your inferior and choose your superior specific openings.

What's your take on the Split-Fuseki (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki)? How inferior is it in your opinion.

Not as inferior as your subsequent moves.

[Pippen]

@uberdude: Don't judge me on the basis of the malkovich game here.^^ I am better than that in real life .

[EdLee]

Don't judge me on the basis of the malkovich game here.^^ I am better than that in real life .

You're better in a real-time game than in a game with infinite time ?

[Kirby]

Don't judge me on the basis of the malkovich game here.^^ I am better than that in real life .

You're better in a real-time game than in a game with infinite time ?

Seems possible to me. Sometimes you can play bad moves by over thinking.

[EdLee]

Seems possible to me. Sometimes you can play bad moves by over thinking.

True. Whatever it is, that's our level.

[EdLee]

KGS. My idea behind it is that only players 2-3 stones stronger than me may be able to evaluate the situation. What's your take for instance?

Have you also considered the possibility that 2-3 stones better is essential but not necessarily sufficient ?

[Uberdude]

@uberdude: Don't judge me on the basis of the malkovich game here.^^ I am better than that in real life .

Maybe, or maybe your opponents are worse. I wouldn't expect a Tygem 5d with 30 seconds a move to be able to deal with your unusual style as well as we were (with some stronger players and more time). Although I think your split fuseki is slightly objectively bad (maybe loses 5 points, pulling numbers out of the air), if you are more familiar with it and know how to use it better than your opponents know how to play against it then it could actually be an advantage.

[Bantari]

In general, all aspects of the game have influence in how strong we play. And no two of us are exactly equal in any one of these aspects, even if we have identical overall strength/rank. Given any two 5d players - one of them will *always* be stronger in the opening theory, and one (maybe even the same one) will *always* be stronger in fighting, and so on... But they are still both 5d players, and you cannot really predict the outcome of the game.

Weaknesses in one area can be compensated by strengths in another area. By this token, weakness in opening can be compensated by strong play in later parts of the game. There are countless examples of games where one player came out from opening with inferior position and yet still won the game.

The problem with being weak in the opening (as opposed to being weak in, for example, yose) is really twofold:

• Opening happens in pretty much every game, so weakness in this area will affect every game. In comparison, not every game has yose.
• Opening happens very early in the game, so any mistakes in that phase mean that you will face an uphill battle for many moves.

In addition, opening mistakes are often not immediately apparent, so they are much harder to pinpoint and fix.

__________
@RJ:
I am sure you are thinking right, but some stuff you say is just questionable. For example:

If you have not spent your 1000 hours on studying openings, do so now.

1000 hours? really? Do you realize it is like 6 solid months of full-time study, 8 hours a day, every weekday? And that with exclusion of anything else, like studying L&D, playing, going over pro games, etc... I am not sure who can really afford that. I find it strange to give advice to just "do so now". In real life, such study, if ever undertaken, takes long years for most of us.

A 5d understanding the opening will practically always beat the 1d not understanding the opening

A 5d will practically always beat a 1d because a 5d is a 5d while a 1d is only a 1d.
While opening theory knowledge does play a role in such matchup, it is not really the decisive point.

Were you meaning to say that a 1d with superior opening theory will almost always beat a 5d with weak opening theory? This would make more sense in the context of your argument, although I would still find it highly questionable.

There are those very young 4d/5d players without joseki and opening knowledge and with every fighting skill. Against a 5d with both solid opening and fighting knowledge, they almost always lose.

So basically, what you are saying is that given two 5d players, both strong in fighting, the one who is superior in opening theory almost always wins. I would say that the one with strong opening will most likely get a better position out of the opening, but this is all you can really say. There is more to Go than just fighting and opening theory.

Did you mean to say something like "given all other skills being equal, the player with stronger opening theory will win"? If so, I find it rather trivial. You could say the same about pretty much any skill which combines into our overall strength.

And even then, what you say is not necessarily the case, anyways. If both are 5d, then theoretically they both have 50% chance of winning in any given game. My guess is that the one with strong fighting and weak opening is actually *very* strong in fighting, like 6-7d level, and so can compensate for his weak(er) opening. Otherwise he would not be a 5d to begin with.