OCA's log

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:28 am

I would not worry about identifying phases of the game. For one thing, there is no sudden change. I have a book, for instance, about the transition between the opening and middle game.

There is a subtle difference between fuseki and the opening. Fuseki is about arraying your stones for battle. An opening fight does not fit that definition. The battle has already started. Also, an opening battle is not part of the middle game.

After the opening fight in the lower right, :b35:

is a fuseki play.

FWIW, I would consider :w50:

the end of the fuseki. Then :b51:

runs out.

But really, what do labels matter?

Abyssinica · Post by **Abyssinica** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:09 pm

Bill Spight wrote:I would not worry about identifying phases of the game. For one thing, there is no sudden change. I have a book, for instance, about the transition between the opening and middle game.

There is a subtle difference between fuseki and the opening. Fuseki is about arraying your stones for battle. An opening fight does not fit that definition. The battle has already started. Also, an opening battle is not part of the middle game.

I remember someone showed me a whole board position tsumego a bit ago. He called it a fuseki problem, but there was a running battle going on. I told him, "This isn't fuseki, this is middle game." "But it's only been 30 moves." "There's a running battle m8"

oca · Post by **oca** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:05 am

Bill Spight wrote:But really, what do labels matter?

I try to improving my appreciation of urgent situation, that's why I try to idenfify "roughly" the different phases of the game.
In that game, fuseky may ends near 20 or 50, what's interssting to me is that the difference comes from that sequence in the bottom right corner which seems to be an urgent situation...
so I think I will dig a bit into that fighting sequence to see why it was "urgent"

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:27 pm

Antti Tormanen has a great post on his site about the different stages of the game, as well as how to punish out-of-stage mistakes based on when they occur:
http://gooften.net/essays/tens-guide-to-studying-professional-games/

It's oriented towards studying professional games, but should be applicable to yours as well.

oca · Post by **oca** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:53 am

Hi skydyr, thank you for the link !

oca · Post by **oca** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:11 am

so I think I will dig a bit into that fighting sequence to see why it was "urgent"

So let's come back to that game of Cho Chikun vs Sakata Eio and have a closer look at the fight that start here :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I didn't find any joseki starting like that (in Igowin Joseki and in josekipedia )?
but this move is not marked as a bad answer either... so what is that :w8:

an undefined move ?

Any way let's see the following moves....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 2 1 3 . . B . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . c b . . X . O 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

is allready a surprise too me... I think I would have played at "a", "b"
but I see now that thw hoshi stone would be a bit alone then...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 1 X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

12 - 15 : ok

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . a X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 5 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This

looks very small too me... I would have played "a" so I have something that is not correct in my judgement here...

:b17:

ok, the lader at "a" doesn't work for white.

:w18:

what if white tenuki... black would descend at :w20:

so I think this one was mandatory.

:b19:

a forcing move

:w20:

ok, mandatory too...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 4 . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 2 3 X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

kill eye space in the bottom, and now I think that was also the idea behind :b19:

that is not just a forcing move...

:w22:

looks weird to me... I don't really understand what white want to do here...
just threaten to cut at :b23:

? sure there is more then that... but I miss to spot the whole idea...

:b23:

of course...

:w24:

: still missing the plan... territory ? no... or not only but does that really help the other group ? seems to easy for black to separate...

:b25:

separate....

:w26:

set up a race to the center ? (and gain influance to attck the bottom/right corner ?

That's all for today... I will try to memorize these few moves as an exercice for and I will continue later...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:23 am

8 is a joseki and is in josekipedia. The main idea is to get influence, which counters the san ren sei.

http://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhphpi

Mostly ok, but

oca wrote:
$$Wcm16
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . a X O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 5 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . a X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 5 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This looks very small too me... I would have played "a" so I have something that is not correct in my judgement here...

I presume you mean the p5 "a" not the other one. Black would answer that for nice 4th line territory, but the reason white played 16 in the game is black is threatening to capture 2 stones at 20. By pushing first before defending white makes a cutting point weakness in black's position when he blocks (which forces white to defend). If white just defended and later played the push then black would probably jump to avoid the cutting point. The point is white 16 below has now become unnecessary as 18 and 20 got more liberties for white. So the meaning of the push is white asks black a question: "Are you going to block now which forces me to defend in gote, but the downside for you is you have a cutting point for later?"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 4 . X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 3 O 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, there are some situations where just defending without pushing first is better, if later you would prefer to jump not push:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But this jump is quite thin and endgame style move. However, if that area was very strong black so there was no hope to use the cutting point weakness, then just defend and aim at this jump would probably be best.

22 and 24 is about taking away black's eyeshape whilst developing the lower left area.

oca · Post by **oca** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:33 am

me wrote:I didn't find any joseki starting like that (in Igowin Joseki and in josekipedia )?

Uberdude wrote:8 is a joseki and is in josekipedia. The main idea is to get influence, which counters the san ren sei.

http://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhphpi

Oh...

thanks ! in french we say "Je devrais changer mes lunettes" in that situation which roughly translate to: "I should change my glasses..."

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:47 am

Uberdude wrote:
However, there are some situations where just defending without pushing first is better, if later you would prefer to jump not push:

$$Wcm16
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But this jump is quite thin and endgame style move. However, if that area was very strong black so there was no hope to use the cutting point weakness, then just defend and aim at this jump would probably be best.

22 and 24 is about taking away black's eyeshape whilst developing the lower left area.

Yup. Black's diagonal attachment is about making White overconcentrated (if White allows that). On the other hand White is trying to bring the 3-3 point in the left corner into the game, which is tricky: occupying the corner at 3-3 is basically the least flexible standard opening.

In the game White is not trying to make low territory, which is what this diagram looks like, but get some attacking prospects by giving Black a weak group next to White's weak group. The peeping play is part of that, and it is not kikashi to create a disposable stone, so White immediately builds on it.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:55 am

from that position :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

what if black played :b31:

like that [edit](ok that's a bad shape but I'm curious)[/edit]:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O 3 2 X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

would

then be correct ? and what about that :b33:

next ?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:03 am

This table shape looks good, as if black answers the bump with extend and tries to cut white he kills himself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm32 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . 1 4 3 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 6 8 . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . X X 7 9 . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:05 am

Uberdude wrote:This table shape looks good, as if black answers the bump with extend and tries to cut white he kills himself.

Thank you Uberdude,
That's even not obvious to me that the black stones are dead here :-?

So... looks like a good exercice for me to prove that :salute:

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . X X O O a | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

for now I'm still unable to live as white if black plays :b43:

at a or b... still searching...

oca · Post by **oca** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:39 am

I wil do a quick pause in that Cho game to post a game of mine that I played yesterday.

I really enjoyed that game even if I lost for a few points.
Any comments very welcome...

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:00 am

oca wrote:Any comments very welcome...

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5448

immediately at E4 would show more perception of power and position.

:b29:

P4 or O4 make more sense to me. You can make more on the lower side than White can on the right.

:b43:

Black gets into a mess round here. This makes no sense unless you play :b45:

one to the left ("dropping back" - one of the keys to relaxed style).

:b53:

You consistently miss the E4 bulge point round here. You can win by second-line plays in the endgame, but not there yet.

:b63:

Bad style.

:b99:

OK, Black should probably start something now, though I find this hard to credit. Mistakes follow on both sides. Looking round the board, at this point Black's shapes lack efficiency.

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