#247 tentano v. hailthorn

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moyoaji
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

hailthorn011 wrote:Looks like it's time to fight.

Since black doesn't have the ladder, it'll be a very short fight...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Ladder is good for white.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 B 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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skydyr
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

This move was my first instinct, apart from the empty triangle, but I felt that it's problematic for black without the ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . M . . . W O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 4 1 2 B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think that a move in the vicinity of either of the marked points is compensation enough for white's good shape in what was black's area of influence. Not taking one of them, however, seems even worse for black. If black extends to :w4 instead of cutting, white will connect and break black's shape. Then black's corner will give away enough sente moves for white that white will have no trouble living, or black will have to sacrifice the corner altogether. Either seems dubious.

I'd rather have been able to take the point of :w2: in the diagram above, but the empty triangle is somewhat awkward. This again leads to the idea of not exchanging the marked stones.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by amatterof »

I think Hailthorn is right to expect a fight. Even though the ladder is good for White, the presence of the marked Black stone does mean that Black can secure some territory on the right. (If White plays 5 at 6, a Black play at Q6 would break the ladder, and a very complicated fight would break out.) Although White does get sente, I don't think he can completely eliminate the aji from L4 is one move. Then, there will be a fight between the 3 Black stones and White's newly created bottom-side group.

In other words, one of these two possibilities (and probably the first one):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 O O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 B 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 8 7 . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O O 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 B 1 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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tentano
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm9 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W 8 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 3 . . 9 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can come up with three ideas, here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . C . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . C 8 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 3 . . 9 C 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


O7 seems too soon. It will turn into an eyeless mongrel, a target for harassment.
P4 seems to be the quintessential kyu move. Splitting two things which will both not die, while making no eyes.
O5 pushes out a little to the middle, preparing for O7. If black takes O7, there is still a follow-up at N4.

Coming up with three ideas is not that impressive when only one of them is any good, but one out of three ain't bad.
Thinking about top-left, too, but I simply can't abandon the bottom right like this. I really want to extend along the top.
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Uberdude
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Uberdude »

@tentano
tentano wrote:P4 seems to be the quintessential kyu move. Splitting two things which will both not die, while making no eyes.


What do you expect to happen with your move? What will happen to o3? What would happen with p4 and what would happen to o3 in that case? No detailed reading requested, just 3 moves deep is enough.


@obs

His move is an utter disaster:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm9 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W 8 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 3 . B 9 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black simply extends and secures a large 4th line territory on the bottom and makes L4 strong (so J4 loses a lot of power). p4 might be kyuish in the sense even a kyu should know that you need to split black and link up to o3 or else o3 is just a loss.

amatterof suggests l3 attachment after the ladder, but that feels bad to me, attaching to a weak stone, I prefer to jump and attack large scale if possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 . . . 7 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 3 . O , X . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or if that ponnuki group is weak rather than thick can we just capture l4? Depends what there is at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . a . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

@Uberdude
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 4 5 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 4 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 2 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The problem with these forecasts, of course, is that they can be completely wrong beyond the first move.
I'm really starting to wonder if O3 isn't simply a mistake.
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Uberdude
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Uberdude »

@tentano

And those 3 diagrams do you think good for white/black/even?


@Obs

My guess is tentano thinks the first one is good for black, and is scared of his ponnuki being a false eye and dying, but actually black is being absurd and overplaying and it's awesome for white. The key point is white has connected to o3, which means black's corner is surrounded, and by pressuring it white can easily secure his group. In fact black can die in the corner if he is not careful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Attacking tanks with tennis balls rarely works
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . a X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . i h X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . f g X O O O 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X e O . O X 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X X 4 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can make black live small in gote, getting useful stones on the outside in the process, and then move out and split black at a, or simply skip to b (weak IMO). There is the cut of e-i to come soon too, those 2 black stones are weak and short of liberties plastered next to white's ponnuki tank.

tentano's 2nd diagram is even worse for black, white 5 should be the descent like above and black's corner is dead.
Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hailthorn011
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm9 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W 8 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 3 . B 9 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm kinda surprised :white: didn't go for the ladder as I totally misread this entire area. Now I simply extend and I'll be able to connect at P3.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

tentano, listen to Kageyama Toshiro 7-dan:

Chapter 1: "If you want to capture stones, hold up two fingers and say to yourself: 'Can I capture with the net?' and 'Can I capture with the ladder?'"
Chapter 2: "Cutting is the most basic tactic of all." and "In close combat situations, where the opposing stones touch each other, you cut if you can and connect if you can."
Chapter 3: "The go stones were born to walk, too. When they are widely separated they can get out of step a little with no serious consequences, but when they are in contact and get out of step, the results are frightening to see."
Chapter 4: "When opposing stones touch each other like this, the question of who gets ahead and who falls behind can decide who takes the lead in the whole game."

---

I was horrified to see the result here. White is now left with nothing in this area. Black has connected. He has profit on the bottom. And what does white have? A weak group. A liability.

tentano, please learn from this game. Remember the importance of the fundamentals: ladders, nets, cutting, connecting, keeping ahead of your opponent. Use them in your games. Engrave them into your mind. They will serve you well for years to come.

"...the game lasts for two or three hundred moves and you cannot stop at each one to consider each of the fundamentals. You have to soak up the fundamentals as you practice on your own, studying them until they become part of your very being. If the fundamentals do not operate subconsciously when you sit down to play, you have not mastered them yet."
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:
Attacking tanks with tennis balls rarely works.


That's why we lob Molotov tennis balls. :mrgreen:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

White's play is a study in what not to do. IMO, White has fallen nearly a stone behind.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . b O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . X a X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
tentano wrote: :white: (a) seems to be the quintessential kyu move.
tentano wrote:The problem with these forecasts, of course, is that they can be completely wrong beyond the first move.
:white: (b) is an utter disaster
White's play is a study in what not to do.

Hi tentano,
Hmm, :white: (a) is the only move here, but you discarded it as bad. (This is not so good.)
At the same time, you also consider your own analysis could be wrong even past 1 move. (This is better.)

From my experience, and I know of at least two other friends -- all around the range (SDK...1dan) in Go --
at some point, we all had the same epiphany: "I don't know anything!" (in this case, about Go.)
It's a brilliant feeling. It frees you greatly.

This moment is not so easy to come by, from my experience (in Go, and in a few other areas).
For one of the friends mentioned above, he had been taking pro lessons for about 1 year before he had the moment. (He was about 2k-1k level before he started pro lessons.)
For me, in Go, it happened a little sooner.
For me, in another field, this eureka moment happened not just once, but many times, over the course of many years.
My most recent "I don't know anything" moment (in this other field) happened after 25 years of study. :)

I hope at some point, you also experience this moment.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

@Uberdude
In the first diagram, I think white is forced to live miserably while squeezed between the corner and a black wall which projects influence everywhere.

In the second, I think white will end up eyeless, fleeing up, while black gets to consolidate a lot of territory.

In the third, I think white will shut off some of black and project influence to the center.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 1 . 9 7 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't think of anything which really invalidates my intended plan, so I'll just have to follow it and see if my opponent can do it for me.
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Post by EdLee »

Hi tentano, a glimpse of the hidden treasures awaiting you:

tentano wrote:In the first diagram, I think white is forced to live miserably while squeezed between the corner and a black wall which projects influence everywhere.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 4 5 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
actually black is being absurd and overplaying and it's awesome for white.


tentano wrote:In the second, I think white will end up eyeless, fleeing up, while black gets to consolidate a lot of territory.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 4 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
tentano's 2nd diagram is even worse for black


tentano wrote:In the third, I think white will shut off some of black and project influence to the center.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 2 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
. :w1: is an utter disaster
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