#248 amatterof vs. Kirby

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:51 am

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:23 am

EdLee wrote:Is it too slow for to add a move in the vicinity of the shaded area ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd much rather approach the corner and try to take care of the side through the natural flow from that. Doing it directly feels a bit slow, but capturing the white stone is arguably honte.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:34 am

@amatterof:

amatterof wrote:For what it's worth, I think Black should have exchanged B3 for B4 before playing D7. The difference is minor, but after the B3/B4 exchange, Black has sente endgame at A6, while here, it's gote.

So you would have obediently answered b3 at b4? This resistance looks tricky.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What happens next, maybe black just cuts and sacrifices 3 more stones in exchange for a big wall?

Or like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | 7 X X O 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 . 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Need some careful reading to see if black really can make that exchange without risking a successful resistance from white.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:16 am

@Uberdude

Hmm, I probably would have just responded, but your variations show I should have looked harder before making that decision. I'd also be a bit concerned about something like this as White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(I looked at ways White could try to delay playing :w8:

, but couldn't find anything that worked.) After a Black play at A (or maybe B?) both sides now have heavy groups and it looks to me like a complicated running fight. I suspect Black can get build a nice wall facing the D17 stone and approach there next.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like a natural way to make use of the influence I have on the left side. If he plays around here instead, my influence on the left isn't that useful, and he got a lot of corner territory.

Eg.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . W X O . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:28 am

For observers:

OK, so I guessed right. But I'm now having second thoughts about the F16 response. This strikes me as a pivotal move, so bear with me as I work through this.

First, now that the bottom left is done, I need a new goal/plan. (I notably failed to achieve my first plan, but I don't think the result was terrible.) In the opening, there's very rarely a chance to kill something or make an otherwise game-winning move. Instead, the best I can usually hope for is to find a way to make a few of my opponent's stones look awkward or inefficient. The exact gains from doing so I find are nearly impossible to calculate, but they have a noticeable impact on the middle game. So, that will be my new plan for this corner: try to make at least a few Black stones look heavy, thin, or otherwise awkward.

My first thought in response to the high approach is always to attach underneath. It's a natural way to take some good points, but here, it seems like exactly the wrong idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are at least two problems I see with this position. First, :b6:

is too good. Black gets to naturally eliminate the C7 aji. All of his stones are working well together, and I've failed in my plan. Second, White has played 12 stones, and every single one is on the third or second line. This type of low position would make it hard for White to fight in the middle game.

The next idea was to try to exploit the C7 aji directly with a pincer. Since continuing to play low seems like a bad idea, it should probably be a high pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not crazy about this either. Black will get to harass :w1:

and

and can likely get some nice profit from that. Also, :b4:

again naturally eliminates the C7 aji. This result also fails my original plan - there's nothing awkward or inefficient about any of Black's stones. In general, a pincer here feels like White is being jealous of Black's territory and an overplay.

Now, F16:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 1 . . . c . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . S . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I liked this originally, thinking that Black would need to play somewhere in the shaded area, but each option feels somewhat awkward. C11 is the natural way to extend from the upper left, but it's a low stone in the middle of a framework, which is generally bad. D12 is also a natural extension, but it leaves C7 still causing problems. C10, D10, and D11 each feel thin in relation to the upper left. D11 is probably the closest compromise available for Black, but weaknesses will remain at D13 and C9. In addition, White now has a natural direction in which to use his sente, by approaching the top right (with, e.g. a-c).

However, after thinking about it more, Black might simply play at the square instead and try to build a significant moyo. I'll need to invade, and C7 will help with that, but it still feels like trouble to be creating an obvious target for attack so early in the game. Besides, if I'm going to play on the left side anyway, why would I want to make Black stronger with 1-5 first?

So, now I'm on to thinking about two similar moves, D10 and D11. If I can prompt Black to capture the C7 stone first, then my job becomes easier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Can I get something like this? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks much better than my original pincer diagram. Of course, Black might ignore :w1:

and instead move to seal in the corner, so I want to look at this more.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:56 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Phew, this was a complicated one, but I think D10 does the trick. Here are the Black responses I examined, ranked in order of my belief about their likelihood:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black plays A, I have a couple options, but I think I will try to take the corner before coming back to play C8. Something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a W d . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After White A, Black can exchange B for C. Then he's left with a difficult question. He can either try to build a framework with something like K16, but then his lower left wall still looks silly, or he can try to continue building the wall with E10, but I don't think that works, as I just barely have the ladder I need to respond to d at e. Regardless, both are gote plays, leaving me a chance to try to counter any plans he might have. I also looked briefly at what happens if :b5:

is the capture instead of connecting. In that case, I think it's enough for White to play at :b5:

and capture either C14 or D15. (I'm also considering playing :w2:

at F17 here, and will look at that more if/when the time comes. Other options include D13 and simply C8.)

Next, the counter-attack at B. If Black plays here, then I can't move C7 out directly, or else this happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 W 7 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sadly,

is sente, so not only does Black get an even bigger wall, but now he can make me capture the B7 stones, which makes White look over-concentrated. And with that sente, Black can cruise to victory using his magnificent wall. So, instead, I need to jump in response to D12:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now A and B feel miai-ish. If Black plays B, I can play A and continue with the normal corner joseki. The key difference is that now I have a reduction already in place if Black were to try to build a moyo. It's as though Black played the F16 diagram in my previous post, and actually did play in the shaded area. If Black plays A, then moving C7 out puts the Black 4 stones under severe attack.

For C, if Black captures, I can simply play D13 and feel happy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can continue jumping, but neither white group is really in trouble, and Black's thickness seems ineffective. (If :b1:

was the looser capture at C9, it puts slightly more pressure on White's side group, but not enough to worry me.) He can also play C17, but that means I'll get H16.

Finally, if Black attaches to the corner underneath, I'm thinking about this idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, Black has spent 4 moves to capture the one White stone, so I could see :b9:

be played elsewhere, but then Black has even less to show for his investment on the left. More importantly, Black's 6 stones in the bottom left look silly. It's a wall that does nothing. For this reason, :b3:

might be the capture at :w4:

, but then I can just play the normal joseki in the corner and Black's upper left stones are floating:

There are so many variations that it's tough to be confident. I would guess that Kirby looked at D10 before playing his move, so let's see what he has up his sleeve.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:56 am

His move is annoying. I guess that means it's a good move.

If I just answer and take the stone, I feel like he has the flow of this game. I'm not doing much with my influence, not making points, nothing. He's winning. Plus, the marked stone, below, is inefficient (though, that might already be the case).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if I ignore, and he brings out the stone, then what am I doing then?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do I even answer?

So I feel like I'm in a sticky situation, now. Must be because I screwed up something in the bottom left - what I played must not be joseki. I am still thinking of how I could have done that better.

So maybe I can do some sort of move to try to save the stone in sente, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But surely, it's sloppy, and white benefits:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White seems flexible - with more points, and black seems inefficient.

So what do I do?

I don't know yet. I can't think of something that gives a good result, but I will keep trying. It's possible I'll have to settle for not a good result, but an "OK" result. But this requires more thinking.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:59 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:04 pm

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:07 pm

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

His move is too annoying to ignore - I have to answer it.

The common sense reply is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X C X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But the marked black stone seems *sooo* inefficient.

So I was trying to think of a more active way to reply. But attaching seemed to allow white flexibility, as described earlier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was frustrating to me, but I remembered something that I learned in the Yunguseng Dojang from In-seong. He calls it "1-2-3 reading". Basically, you read a "normal" sequence. Then you find out it doesn't give you a result that seems good enough. Think to yourself, "what was my opponent's response to my 'normal' move?" This is the next candidate move to consider.

So in the diagram above, after I attach, :w2:

seems to be a natural response by white, which brings me to a position that I don't like.

So since I don't like him to play :w2:

, I will play there myself. It still protects the stone.

I feel black stones are still inefficient, but at least this move puts more pressure on his stone than just capturing, which puts no pressure.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:52 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . W . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, the good: I feel happy with D10 and Black's response. C9 doesn't put much, if any, pressure on D10, meaning that I'm still free to play where I like. I was much more worried about a black play at D12 which would force me to decide early how to treat D10. Now I can regard it as simply a probe or light reducing stone. I also feel like after C9/D10 the left is now not quite as important from a direction-of-play standpoint, since I got a low response from Black. Black still has some ways to build a moyo there, especially if White makes a mistake, but it doesn't seem as scary to me any more.

Now, the bad: I don't like my original plan anymore. I think I was overlooking something important:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 O . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The problem generally seems to be that White is continuing to play low stones. I tried to fix this with D10 and D13, but the rest of the sequence is all low. In some cases, I could think about playing at A (another low stone), to put pressure on the black top group, but since D10 and D13 are weak too, this isn't really much of an attack. On the other hand, playing at B (trying to play high), also looks pretty slow. So, I went back to the drawing board.

From what I wrote above, (I think) I know 3 things:

(1) The left is now less important;
(2) I need to fix White's balance by playing high; and
(3) D10 is a probe/light reducing stone.

A play at D13, however, ignores points #1 and #3. It tries to build more on the left, where I was never going to make more points (especially after C9). Instead, I'm back to thinking about F16. It's oriented along the top, which seems bigger, it's a high stone, and it keeps me from investing more around the light D10. This sequence seems pretty natural:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 3 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 1 . . . 9 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . e . d . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X c . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Comparing this diagram to the previous one, :b2:

,

, and

are all as they were before, but :w1:

is higher than White-3 in the previous diagram, and Black hasn't yet been able to play in the center, which both seem like good things. At this point I'm leaning towards :w5:

instead of A, because I'll want to keep Black's top group as unsettled as possible to make it harder for him to turn the whole left into points (and less likely to play at B). It leaves more aji behind, but I can fix some of that by coming to :w7:

and

. This is a bit thin, but I think I'm ok with it. This line of play also means that Black gets a shimari in the lower right, but because g3 is low, the bottom also doesn't seem that interesting to me. I would probably play C, D, E, or F next.

Of course, Black might choose to try to still build the left by playing :b6:

at B, but I think this also helps me fix the aji of playing :w5:

, and I don't see D10 being surrounded in one more move by Black.

As a side note, I find it's a very help discipline device to force me to write out these explanations for my moves. It keeps me honest.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:12 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To be honest, I didn't think about it much. But the top seems bigger than the right.

With the two marked stones, neither black nor white can get a ton of profit the left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So let's play on the top, instead.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wow, I did not expect this move. It means I really don't have any clue what Black's plan is, since this move is pretty inconsistent with the idea of building up the left side. That said, it's a key invasion point in the White framework that I sketched out in my last post, and it calls out the defect in the knight's move, so it makes some sense. On the other hand, I can't help but feel that Kirby has given me 2 potentially weak groups to aim at. And, that attack will occur in an area where I played first, so I feel like it should be favorable for me. Now to find a way to make that a reality...

Here is the long list of main ideas I explored:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . e X . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . c . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . h X . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A and B both put pressure on the D15 stone, to try to keep it weak.
C and D both put pressure on the H17 stone, to try to keep it weak.
E tries to fix the knight's move defect while borrowing strength from H17 and taking a few points.
F is a shape move to try to fix the defects in the knight's move. It doesn't completely eliminate a Black play at E17, but it makes it easier to deal with.
G is a defensive move, aiming to keep my stones connected and prevent Black from sliding here. Black can still attach at C17, however, and I feel like I end up over-concentrated. Too submissive. It's out.
H tries to go ahead and take the corner now, but it just ends up strengthening D15 and leaves F16 looking odd. It's out.

After playing out some more variations, I've next eliminated C, D, and E. C violates the rule against touching a weak stone, and that tends to show in the play. E similarly helps out a weak stone and just helps Black develop the upper right. D creates my own new weak group that I'll have to handle. I'd rather wait until I've built up more strength to come back and play a move like this.

I looked at lot at F, and originally thought it was a good idea, but ultimately concluded that it doesn't put much pressure on either Black stone, giving Black time to settle both.

That leaves A and B. What worries me about them is that if Black ignores and supports H17, I feel I have to find a way to kill D15 on a large scale. To have a chance to do so, I pretty much need B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(If I play 3 at A, then Black can just take another big point (like B), and White feels inefficient.) After :b4:

however, I am not convinced Black will die. If he lives, then I have a bunch of thickness in the middle of two strong Black groups. At a minimum, then, I need to make sure that I leave Black floating rather than living and surrounded. This will be an intense fight.

Black might take a different path, though, and I looked at these possible other responses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black at A seems most likely, but also seems like a good time for me to play G15, and hopefully I can get profit on top. Once G15 is in place, a White play at L17 looks nice. Black B feels like a bit of an overplay, since I can play C16 now. If Black plays C, I'm thinking of blocking at E18.

So many complications...

Life In 19x19

#248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re:

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby