alternative to a 4-4 opening

[Nathanl]

While studying some variations on 4-4 joseki I came upon one that I'm not following at the end. According the joseki dictionary I was looking the black 7 stone is necessary to live. I've played it a few times and am having troubles killing it as white if black tenukis instead of that last move. I'm sure the dictionary is more knowledgable than I am and I'm just not seeing the key move. Any thoughts on how white can kill if black skips that?

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5492

[DrStraw]

Push and when B block play Q18. I seem to recall variations where B does not die, but wishes he had because of the weak group created.

[amatterof]

What DrStraw said. These are the common variations that I know:

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]SZ[19]AB[pd][nc][qc]AW[qf][rd][lc];B[tt];W[rc];B[rb];W[pb](;B[qb];W[oc];B[od];W[nb]C[Black cannot play N18.])(;B[ob];W[qb];B[pc];W[ra];B[sb];W[sc](;B[re];W[qe];B[qd];W[sa])(;B[qe];W[re];B[pf];W[pg])))

[Bill Spight]

should be the one space pincer at R-12.

[Uberdude]

s17 is a rather pathetic move. Please don't play it because some full-of-crap joseki source like Kogo's told you to.

There are many alternatives. Tenuki for one, an empty corner is probably bigger. Neither of white's groups is strong yet, so don't just think you are weak, white is weak too. He didn't extend on the right like he should, so pincer there like Bill said is much better spirit. Or jump out with your group at o15 or o14 which is nice and simple to get you out and strong and have miai of pincering either white group.

Black s18 in amatterof's variation is white's dream, black should jump out like o14. (Though obviously it's good to know that peep afterwards as the threat white carries if black does foolishly try to make eyespace in the corner now. If black really does need to live and doesn't mind strengthening an already strong white then he can 2nd line attach under white's pincer and then come back to s18).

[EdLee]

Hi Nathan,

Adding to what's already discussed:

According the joseki dictionary I was looking the black 7 stone is necessary to live.

This is only true if Black is already completely boxed in, and White is strong outside, so Black has no way to escape or fight back.
Then, if White takes S17, then Black is in big trouble.
So given all these constraints -- were they mentioned in your joseki dictionary ? -- (S17) makes life.

[Uberdude]

White's surroundings actually have to be very strong for s17 to be necessary to live, for example here black can scrape out a life. But sometimes you want to live before you need to because your opponent gets a lot of profit in sente from making you live small (here white s17 and the thickness from black doing 2nd line attach). However, if you got something equally (or more) nice with your tenuki for 2 then that's ok. White can also think about playing 5 at 6 which means black can't make eyes on the side so easily, but he breaks white's encircling shape and can run into the centre. Another idea is to play 1 at s17, which allows black to come out at o14 but that exchange is good for white for territory and unless black can break a white centre or get some nice counter attack on m17 he probably feels sad about running around on dame whilst white gets points whilst chasing, so that's why playing s17 himself could be a good idea.

$$Wc 2 tenuki
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 4 6 . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . 7 O . X . . X 3 . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc 2 tenuki
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 4 6 . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . 7 O . X . . X 3 . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

[oca]

:b7: should be the one space pincer at R-12.

Hi Bill, is attaching at R13 also possible ? or would it be too aggressive ?

[Uberdude]

attaching ... aggressive

Think about that...

[snorri]

Interestingly, the position came up in one of the recent games in the AGA Pro Qualification Tournament. See move forward. As always, surroundings and the whole board matter...

(;CA[utf-8]FF[4]ST[2]RU[AGA]OT[5x40 byo-yomi]C[USGO3 [-\]\: This is round 4 of the 3rd AGA Pro Qualification Tournament
USGO3 [-\]\: I'm Dan Steinbrook, I'll be transcribing
]
AP[CGoban:3]SZ[19]GM[1]GN[3rd AGA Pro Qualification Round 4]DT[2015-01-05]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]
PB[Daniel Gourdeau]BR[7d]PW[Ryan Li]WR[7d]KM[7.5]TM[5400]RE[W+Resign]US[Dan Steinbrook]
MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qe];W[dp]C[Jermelle [?\]\: Go Ryan!
];B[pq];W[dc]C[vegmandu [3d\]\: why go ryan he is supposed to win \:)
]
;B[fq]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: DANIEL *girlish scream*
];W[cn];B[jp]C[dixxxa\: I though Kobayashi was old fashionned !
MaLa [5d?\]\: doesnt make it bad
]
;W[pc]C[dixxxa\: sure, I play it all the time !
];B[od];W[oc];B[nd];W[mc];B[pk]
C[tchitchi [2d\]\: wasn't it what black was aiming for?
Jermelle [?\]\: When did Kobayashi become old?
]
;W[md];B[me];W[le];B[mf]C[darkronin [3k\]\: Who is who, for mobile users?
MaLa [5d?\]\: s every human, he became older each day
MaLa [5d?\]\: ryan is white
JeansebL [7d?\]\: Go Daniel!!!
MaLa [5d?\]\: daniel is black
]
;W[po]C[U [?\]\: k4 is rarely played in pro games now because of a certani sequence which i forgot. due to it, theres been experiments with j4 instead of k4
darkronin [3k\]\: Thanks!
Jermelle [?\]\: I play j4 now because it feels solid
tchitchi [2d\]\: or l3 combined with r4
Jermelle [?\]\: not because k4 got old lol
koke [1d\]\: All that only is right if there isn't q9
koke [1d\]\: Andrew jackson made a nice video about that on youtube
]
;B[np];W[qm]C[anewtry [1d\]\: k4 is not old
];B[rl];W[qq];B[qr];W[no];B[mo];W[pr]
C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's old, it's just not dead
duffman [1d\]\: p3
USGO2 [-\]\: koke, watch out for that andrew jackson guy, i hear he's wrong a lot.
Benzene [3d\]\: against kobayashi white just does the normal distant approach, gets strong grou on right side and wins with the large komi
koke [1d\]\: What he said made sense so..
koke [1d\]\: *you
]
;B[pp];W[qp];B[or]C[oren [?\]\: is usgo2 an Andrew Jackson?
anewbie [7k\]\: Nope Dan Steinbrook according to his introduction
oren [?\]\: that was usgo3
anewbie [7k\]\: ohhh, look at me not paying attention
oren [?\]\: ah yeah, usgo2 introduced himself too
oren [?\]\: so yeah
oren [?\]\: \:)
koke [1d\]\: It would be a little strange if he said this about andrew not being him but being in the same room \:D
]
;W[oo]C[hasu [6d\]\: p2 is so bad
xedover [?\]\: if the scribes remember, they should be putting their names in the Options -> Rules -> Transcriber field
hasu [6d\]\: next B n6
]
;B[mp];W[rr];B[ps]C[dixxxa\: Dan Steinbrook is USGO3
U [?\]\: 2 is indeed andrew jackson
]
;W[rm];B[lf];W[ke]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i think koke citing jackson was fine, since it was just a diff situation. Traditional kobayashi might be out of style, but it would make sense that k4 is fine after q9 is in place
Rukis [1k\]\: k4 is fine even without q9..
]
;B[de]C[hobajons [-\]\: li the god
];W[dh];B[ec]C[Benzene [3d\]\: magic sword please
Hollumber [7d?\]\: rukis, we were discussing how it's not so popular with pros today because of a certain sequence that U doesn't remember
]
;W[dd];B[ed];W[ee]C[Benzene [3d\]\: thank you ryan
Benzene [3d\]\: w+R
];B[df]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: what are the options here? f15? what else?
Benzene [3d\]\: e14
Benzene [3d\]\: f14 soft
dixxxa\: George C. might have an opinion
jwc [-\]\: e14 e13 f13
served [3d\]\: E18
]
;W[ef]C[Lsugyen [7d\]\: aww b made a mistake I think
Benzene [3d\]\: f15 e18 b16 d18 c15 c17 c16 b17 c14 j17
Benzene [3d\]\: and black settles on top side
Hollumber [7d?\]\: so far, josekipedia says b is fine
Benzene [3d\]\: and white's left is not spectacular
Lsugyen [7d\]\: d18 was the standard joseki
Lsugyen [7d\]\: w seems better though
]
;B[eg];W[fg]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: this shouldn't be a good variation for w
hobajons [-\]\: but it works
Hollumber [7d?\]\: what variations are you guys looking at? Assuming b can get through this unscathed, he should settle on top
spacetime [4d\]\: oh boy what do we have here
MaLa [5d?\]\: eidogo considers this variation a failure for white....
Torajiro [-\]\: eidogo is a failure
MaLa [5d?\]\: if you say so \:)
Hollumber [7d?\]\: eidogo is such a success. It has many mistakes, but I appreciate whoever put in the time/effort for creating it
r0n1n [4k\]\: i don't think we can't consider this position as a joseki anymore, considering the entire board
Benzene [3d\]\: i think josekipedia is better
Rukis [1k\]\: ron1n do you know what joseki means?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's joseki because l15 is just one space too far for the tactics
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: but eventhough josekipedia has it mistakes
Benzene [3d\]\: or ps.waltheri.net for what pros really do
r0n1n [4k\]\: yes i know rukis thanks ^^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ty benzene. I've been looking for some joseki alternatives
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ronin, i think rukis's point was joseki is just a common sequence. Perhaps you meant that this can't be considered an equal result?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or that l15 significantly influences the variations?
r0n1n [4k\]\: i just mean some of the usual josekis with this may not be equal anymore
Rukis [1k\]\: obvs you dont, if you are calling this not a joseki.
r0n1n [4k\]\: considering l15 m14 n17 and c6
r0n1n [4k\]\: but maybe i'm wrong
jwc [-\]\: d13 only move?
Rukis [1k\]\: yes but hes reading
r0n1n [4k\]\: i'm just asking \: what's an exemple of sequence that ends up qith a bad w result?
Lsugyen [7d\]\: most are
Lsugyen [7d\]\: actually
koke [1d\]\: Only because there are stones around the sequence it doesn'r mean that it isn't joseki anynore
Lsugyen [7d\]\: that's why d16 is rarely played
Rukis [1k\]\: we,, d17 mostly dies no?
r0n1n [4k\]\: yeah i chose my words badly koke
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ronin, a joseki can be unequal locally, but still be considered "joseki." I think either it's been given a wrong definition when beginners are introduced to it, or that its meaning changed over time. I'm not sure which.
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh
Rukis [1k\]\: Joseki is a settled pattern.
r0n1n [4k\]\: that's interesting
Rukis [1k\]\: but doesnt mean it doesnt have variants
JeansebL [7d?\]\: joseki means both players are satisfied with the result
r0n1n [4k\]\: i was always told it was basically "a squence in a corner that end up with both players happy
JeansebL [7d?\]\: yes that's correct
JeansebL [7d?\]\: but
Rukis [1k\]\: thats how its inturpreted.
jwc [-\]\: or both unhappy?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: sometimes it's not locally
JeansebL [7d?\]\: sometimes only 1 player has points locally, the other has influence
JeansebL [7d?\]\: so that player will be happy only if the influence works well with the rest of the board
Hollumber [7d?\]\: for example, the 3-3 invasion against 4-4 stone. Locally bad, but common against double wing moyo
koke [1d\]\: I'd say that it still is joseki you could say this is joseki but w is not happy with this cause of the surrounding stones but it still is a joseki right?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah, I just say joseki = common pattern. Simple, easy.
koke [1d\]\: Right
r0n1n [4k\]\: b looks overconcentrated
r0n1n [4k\]\: or very confused
JeansebL [7d?\]\: there's a stream?
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh no
r0n1n [4k\]\: i didn't meant his face
JeansebL [7d?\]\: loll
JeansebL [7d?\]\: how can you say he looks confused? \:p
r0n1n [4k\]\: more by the time he's takin
JeansebL [7d?\]\: ahhh
r0n1n [4k\]\: well you said it's quite unusual
USGO3 [-\]\: he is in fact concentrating very hard
r0n1n [4k\]\: you see? x)
koke [1d\]\: But are there any options than d13 it seems not
Hollumber [7d?\]\: could be reading out d18 sequences?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or some sort of sacrifice?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: not sure
]
;B[dg]C[DonValley [5d\]\: woah
];W[eh]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: well
r0n1n [4k\]\: he didn't need 10 mins for this move for sure
MaLa [5d?\]\: but for what comes up after C12
MaLa [5d?\]\:
jwc [-\]\: c12 c11
Rukis [1k\]\: he may not play c12
MaLa [5d?\]\: depending on your source, c11 is considered either as wrong or as bad
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
r0n1n [4k\]\: is c17 considered as wrong or bad?
hobajons [-\]\: go daniel!
MaLa [5d?\]\: well... C12 is still natural
]
;B[bf]C[hobajons [-\]\: O BB
MaLa [5d?\]\: uh
hobajons [-\]\: WHAT
hobajons [-\]\: ...
r0n1n [4k\]\: this looks...
Rukis [1k\]\: bet you he doesnt know the joseki
MaLa [5d?\]\: B14 is rather... unique
r0n1n [4k\]\: what next for w ?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: \:D
vegmandu [2d\]\: yeah b14 is strange
koke [1d\]\: Bet he knows the joseki but discovered a new one
MaLa [5d?\]\: but stuff is so complicated...
hobajons [-\]\: so werid
hobajons [-\]\: so cool!
MaLa [5d?\]\: that I have no idea how this would ever continue
hobajons [-\]\: w e18 probs
asdfdsfas\: prob
hobajons [-\]\: or b16
hobajons [-\]\: idk
MaLa [5d?\]\: c12 would feel natural, imho
Trevors [4k\]\: b16 for sure
hobajons [-\]\: hey qt pie
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: if whites not playing e18 black can d18 and directly squeeze white with c17 if he blocks
asdfdsfas\: sup
hobajons [-\]\: <3
asdfdsfas\: \:)
]
;W[bd]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: b doesn't really good for me
r0n1n [4k\]\: really look *
hobajons [-\]\: b probs d18
Rukis [1k\]\: so white didnt play e18 looks like black can squeeze now
hobajons [-\]\: then b f12
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: well theres b16
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ha, nice rukis
hobajons [-\]\: b may just cut straight
hobajons [-\]\: f12
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: locally black seems dead, the only way i see to do something is to cut at f12
Trevors [4k\]\: c12?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: c12 lives, i believe
Hollumber [7d?\]\: can double hane
]
;B[bh]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: and creep under for life
r0n1n [4k\]\: welll
MaLa [5d?\]\: but do you want to just live by c12 double hane? ^^
Trevors [4k\]\: mm i think decending to b12 wld live too.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: this also lives, i would think
r0n1n [4k\]\: a cookie to the one that said b12
Hollumber [7d?\]\: right, i just wanted to refute b being dead \:P
hobajons [-\]\: very interesting
r0n1n [4k\]\: no one? really?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: but now the corner is alive and white can simply attack e18 should be a succes for white ?
Trevors [4k\]\: next to squeeze corner then make life at top
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yep, looks like not such a great joseki after all
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: i want a cookier
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i want a cookiest
r0n1n [4k\]\: u want it cookier and cookier?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: like he said, he wants it cookiest
Hollumber [7d?\]\: till it don't cookie no mo
Rukis [1k\]\: I dont think this is a set pattern O.o
r0n1n [4k\]\: what does b answers to c12 ?
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh wait
r0n1n [4k\]\: my bad
r0n1n [4k\]\: missread x)
mooooo [4k\]\: so its gonna be ryan or eric this year?
Grey28 [3d\]\: Interesting b
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's ok, so did daniel
OneStone [6d\]\: Isn't that called the Great Sword Joseki or so?
]
;W[ff]C[Rukis [1k\]\: no moooo
jwc [-\]\: yes
Rukis [1k\]\: this is just a round robin
OneStone [6d\]\: Except that B blew it.
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: d18 and connceting is sente
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: against the corner
OneStone [6d\]\: d18 c18 e18 is sente, but is it enough sente now?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: and then black can something like h17 to live
r0n1n [4k\]\: is the corner unconditionnally alive?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's def enough sente if b can win semeai
JeansebL [7d?\]\: seems to me that black can live on both sides, which is quite good enough I think...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: and it looks like b can
OneStone [6d\]\: Exactly
OneStone [6d\]\: so he can, but W will answer with b18
OneStone [6d\]\: or b17 ?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i think must c18
jwc [-\]\: c12
OneStone [6d\]\: d18 c18 e18 and then next is the question
Hollumber [7d?\]\: oh, gotcha
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: i think white defends the corner afterwards
r0n1n [4k\]\: how many time left usgo3 please?
Trevors [4k\]\: d18 c18 wld end with white alive
USGO3 [-\]\: black has 35 minutes, white has 65 minutes
r0n1n [4k\]\: thanks
jwc [-\]\: OneStone, I think it was caaled the Magic Sword joseki
r0n1n [4k\]\: w+time
]
;B[cj]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: xD
Hollumber [7d?\]\: noice
JeansebL [7d?\]\: interesting
JeansebL [7d?\]\: black wants more, he's confident about living up there...
]
;W[kf]C[Trevors [4k\]\: still thinking g17
];B[db]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: w looks sure about killing too apparently
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: l14 seems worrysome
Rukis [1k\]\: I've consulted the oracles and they have judged this bad for black
]
;W[cb]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
];B[fb];W[bb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i see ryan has been studying under lil wayne
Benzene [3d\]\: did white laugh when black played b14?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: oracle normaly smoke pot
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "do it big and let the small fall under that"
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I personnaly like the result for black...
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: white seems confident about killing
spacetime [4d\]\: no killing going on here
r0n1n [4k\]\: is the corner alive?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: impossible...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: if b could live if white didn't play l14, i would like it, too. I really wanted to see that sequence
Trevors [4k\]\: hmmm c19
bbio [5k\]\: killing what ??? ther is nothing to kill yet
JeansebL [7d?\]\: corner sure, but can't kill black up there
Trevors [4k\]\: c16, then a17
spacetime [4d\]\: B will play around h17 now
hobajons [-\]\: w alive
JeansebL [7d?\]\: l14 surprised me...
Trevors [4k\]\: c19 sente white must make another move then blk can extend and live top easy
]
;B[ic]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: b saving the corner aji, since i guess there's no clean kill?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I see no aji
r0n1n [4k\]\: fear the crazywindsuji incoming
JeansebL [7d?\]\: you see a ko?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ko threats, at the minimum
asdfdsfas\: me neither
JeansebL [7d?\]\: well yeah... but that's not aji XD
asdfdsfas\: what was white's reasoning behind l14?
]
;W[jb]C[smajdalf [1d\]\: this resul seems actuall very good for b
asdfdsfas\: invade right side after?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I have yet to understand l14
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: q12 invasion
Hollumber [7d?\]\: l14 seems like "I know this will die" move, but i don't think it will die...
]
;B[gd]C[Benzene [3d\]\: r15 will die
Benzene [3d\]\: or q9
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: thats why i said white is confident about killing hollumber \:)
JeansebL [7d?\]\: lol
r0n1n [4k\]\: the god w is hungry of blood and asking for a tribute
duffman [1d\]\: w can bleed \:-)
spacetime [4d\]\: who's winning? b has more but white is so thick, worried about r11 type move
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: actually this turned out to be more than ok for blac
Trevors [4k\]\: waiting for blk h14 area move
mooooo [4k\]\: so when this is round robin what do the winning players get for the championship round?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: r11 would be fine, i think. B's potential would be ruined, but I think he'd still be winning
Hollumber [7d?\]\: so long as c3 remains open, i like black
JeansebL [7d?\]\: http\://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/2014-APQF-Rules_and_Regulations.pdf
JeansebL [7d?\]\: take a look at the last page mooo
mooooo [4k\]\: Seeding\: Players will be seeded into the tournament by their ranking from APQF RRP. This list will be published prior to the first round of the Championship and any disputes must be made prior to the first round of play.
mooooo [4k\]\: got it thx
q11 [3d\]\: time for q11 genius move
]
;W[hf]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: the relevant part is that the result from the rund robin counts for future matches
MaLa [5d?\]\: \:P
bbio [5k\]\: w is patient
spacetime [4d\]\: b is not alive yet at the top perhaps
r0n1n [4k\]\: is b really gonna live un there?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: now maybe will do c19?
r0n1n [4k\]\: in*
JeansebL [7d?\]\: clearly needs 1 more move lol
Trevors [4k\]\: mmm least i was right about h14 lol
Hollumber [7d?\]\: oh, you know, i don't think c19 is sente
asdfdsfas\: it isn't
Hollumber [7d?\]\: w is alive after b19 d19
Trevors [4k\]\: ya only wrks if white plys b19
Hollumber [7d?\]\: someone said it was and i took them at their word ><
OneStone [6d\]\: Don't worry, statistically everybody is gonna be right about some move some time.
Trevors [4k\]\: lol
Grey28 [3d\]\: w patient for sente if b want live here
Trevors [4k\]\: yay!!!!!!!
Hollumber [7d?\]\: regardless of whether b lives on top, I think he's found a new joseki?
Trevors [4k\]\: it was if white went for trade h17 but i havent re looked
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or at least a good alternative for special situations
OneStone [6d\]\: b18 is alive I think
MaLa [5d?\]\: @hollumber white tenukid with L14
MaLa [5d?\]\: and B still has trouble
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b18 def alive, because b15 iss sente in sequences with c16
]
;B[jc]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: so I would not be satisified as black
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b only has trouble because of l15/l14 stones
]
;W[kb]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: this is true, but compared to the C12 variations...
MaLa [5d?\]\: this feels worse
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah. i do think it needs to be explored more, though. It seems like there could be circumstances where it would be playable
Hollumber [7d?\]\: since b also tenuki'd with c10
Hollumber [7d?\]\: and in c12 variations, w ends up with wall on left anyways
MaLa [5d?\]\: c10 feels really needed
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "tenuki'd"
MaLa [5d?\]\: otherwise C12 is super painful
OneStone [6d\]\: tenukied
mooooo [4k\]\: b needs another move to life? i would like to play n10 or f5 as b
Trevors [4k\]\: j18 settles right?
OneStone [6d\]\: B needs to play j18 anyway.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: hmm, i think what i wasn't considering was that the corner dies in most variations ><
OneStone [6d\]\: I think at that moment it becomes apparent that the k17 l18 exchange was bad for B
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ok, b14 not that great, then
MaLa [5d?\]\: C12 C15 leaves the corner alive
MaLa [5d?\]\: but in that variation black lives on both sides
MaLa [5d?\]\: in an easier fashion then here
]
;B[ie]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i see. I haven't studied this much. Most of my knowledge came from browsing josekipedia while observing this game ^^
OneStone [6d\]\: j15 j14 j18 makes certain life even more certain
Trevors [4k\]\: lol id hope
MaLa [5d?\]\: I was also mostly checking dictionary/eidogo/josekipedia \:D
OneStone [6d\]\: but it's plainly a bad exchange
MaLa [5d?\]\: but comparing those variations there to the game, I prefer the book variations for black ^^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah, i think the main book variation "punishment" from black woul have worked, since l15 was just too far
OneStone [6d\]\: btw, what is the link for the main book variation?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: on josekipedia?
]
;W[jg]C[OneStone [6d\]\: yes, either
q11 [3d\]\: a new way to troll kgs
Hollumber [7d?\]\: my internet's lagging, but you can just click through yourself. b deviates at b14
q11 [3d\]\: put relevant junk variations in josekiepdia as the game is ongoing
Trevors [4k\]\: now that n .... 11 move?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i wish they had timestamps for variations
q11 [3d\]\: k13 is an instructional shape
q11 [3d\]\: my instinct was j14
MaLa [5d?\]\: imagine kgs would display chatvariations like oro ^.^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: indeed
Hollumber [7d?\]\: same
q11 [3d\]\: but then k15 is sente
]
;B[dr]C[q11 [3d\]\: also this more power to outside
Hollumber [7d?\]\: wow. that died, apparently
OneStone [6d\]\: Is B really alive at the top?
q11 [3d\]\: ok, tsumego time
q11 [3d\]\: b is happy with ko?
]
;W[pi]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i mean, just h18 ensures the kill, no?
mooooo [4k\]\: e19 j18 kind of miai?
q11 [3d\]\: oh no, q11 genius move like i said
mooooo [4k\]\: ah h18
q11 [3d\]\: it's
q11 [3d\]\: always brilliant
lance [1k\]\: crazywind move
JeansebL [7d?\]\: normal move...à
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b is destroyed
asdfdsfas\: um black could easily live, it didn't apparently die
Hollumber [7d?\]\: how does b live after h18?
OneStone [6d\]\: d2 was not urgent
mooooo [4k\]\: h18 j18 j19 h17 g18 g17 h19 f16 h15 e19
JeansebL [7d?\]\: but it's true D2 is questionaable...might be better to fix on the right...
]
;B[qg]C[WarMachine [2d\]\: sad move
mooooo [4k\]\: not sure though
];W[oh]C[OneStone [6d\]\: h18 j18 j19 h17 and if g18, B h19 next
]
;B[of];W[qh];B[ol]C[mooooo [4k\]\: yes h19 better then g17
];W[rg];B[rf];W[pg];B[qf]
;W[ml]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: holy cajoles. that friggin lives
Hollumber [7d?\]\: anybody found a killing sequence?
kjlkjlj\: woah looks severe
Hollumber [7d?\]\: the eyespace seems so small, but j15 makes everything so wonderful
Hollumber [7d?\]\: USGO, what did ryan look like when b played d18?
USGO3 [-\]\: he didn't seem surprised
Hollumber [7d?\]\: interesting. thanks
OneStone [6d\]\: Og, what a mess
OneStone [6d\]\: d2 was so irrelevant
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i'd either be board-flipping pissed, or depressively broken
]
;B[nj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: And what makes you think you can't be both at the same time?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: one involves a surge of energy, the other a drain
enufo3 [1d\]\: these states occur in succession, not at the same time
OneStone [6d\]\: o9 p10 n10 is shape right now, but W can also think about p10 o9 p9 o8 q8 later. Therefore he could start with n11 just to keep B seperated
]
;W[oj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: so W is going for p10 o9 and then what?
OneStone [6d\]\: after that p9 o8 q8 seems too small
q11 [3d\]\: s16?
OneStone [6d\]\: Yes W wants to play s16 asap
]
;B[nk]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: s16 for profit, then continue pressuring b
];W[ok];B[nl]
;W[pl]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: or not
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
Hollumber [7d?\]\: seems slack..just c3 now?
]
;B[nc];W[nb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: this gone be gud
];B[mb];W[lb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: could someone explain the threat after w p18?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b m16? the pressure center stones? o.O
]
;B[cl];W[cq];B[cr];W[fd]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: all the kibitzers are gone \:(
];B[fc]
;W[hb]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: we can't use josekipedia to kibitz anymore
mooooo [4k\]\: whats on the clock?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: lol
OneStone [6d\]\: You are still here, Holl.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i'm so lonelyyyy
]
;B[ib]C[OneStone [6d\]\: I'm with you...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: could you explain the n18 threat if w plays p18?
OneStone [6d\]\: h17 is not possible
Rukis [1k\]\: black lives holl
Hollumber [7d?\]\: if w p18? or are you saying currently?
Rukis [1k\]\: plus p18 doesnt capture q17
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ah, i'll need to go buy some reading glasses
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i just assumed it worked
OneStone [6d\]\: No, I can't explain it in any other way than that both made a reading mistake.
apina [1d\]\: it doesn't work, but now r17 is bigger
USGO2 [-\]\: i'm here too!
OneStone [6d\]\: But what about W h15 now?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ah, nice
USGO2 [-\]\: i just can't kibitz with y'all
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ynot?
Rukis [1k\]\: why \:/
mooooo [4k\]\: how much time do the players have left?
]
;W[da]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W can't ever start the d19 e19 ko?
OneStone [6d\]\: Nope, he is saying that he can
mooooo [4k\]\: good call =)
Hollumber [7d?\]\: man, i'm so confused
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i thought b was dead. then i thought he was alive. now, it's somehow going to ko, and my world is crumbling down
OneStone [6d\]\: Well, that's because now the men are called upon to do the heavy reading work.
Rukis [1k\]\: its because white didnt play p18 this has come to ko
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i wonder how long it would take to get to that reading level. I don't care much for joseki or style or anything, although it's interesting. I just wanna be able to outread any 5d
OneStone [6d\]\: Nah, that's a non sequitur, Rukis
Rukis [1k\]\: what
OneStone [6d\]\: It's a matter of practice, Holl
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "irrelevant"
]
;B[fe]C[OneStone [6d\]\: Non sequitur = 'does not follow'
Rukis [1k\]\: actually its quite relevant, j18 becomes sente
OneStone [6d\]\: i.e. (id est)/ergo, there is no cause-and-effect relationship
]
;W[ia]C[Rukis [1k\]\: now everyone go nuts becuase b captured a stone \:O
OneStone [6d\]\: Yes, that is true, but this is a different level of reading, Rukis
]
;B[hc]C[USGO3 [-\]\: black 5 min main time remaining
OneStone [6d\]\: h15 now
OneStone [6d\]\: And the other thing, Rukis, is that if it really gonna be ko, W can't lose it. In general, it's not a ko W would/should start.
OneStone [6d\]\: If W wants to kill, he needs to play h15 now
]
;W[gb]C[OneStone [6d\]\: g18 looks weird
OneStone [6d\]\: h15 is alive now
OneStone [6d\]\: but then, W f19 is sente, which is big
apina [1d\]\: w thinks it's alive anyway?
apina [1d\]\: ant then this is points?
Rukis [1k\]\: black can play f19 too
apina [1d\]\: can he?
]
;B[he]C[OneStone [6d\]\: What about e19 e18 h13 ?
];W[fa]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B gives in under tghe pressure
apina [1d\]\: sente points
Rukis [1k\]\: and now the m16 is real
OneStone [6d\]\: B would have wanted to make the exchange of e19 for c19
]
;B[gc]C[OneStone [6d\]\: that would make a difference of about 4-5 pnts
OneStone [6d\]\: B could have used j14 and g14 as ko threats
OneStone [6d\]\: W n6 or n7 looks attractive now
OneStone [6d\]\: But maybe w f6 makes more common sense.
]
;W[fp];B[gp];W[fo];B[go];W[gn]C[OneStone [6d\]\: h4 is normal shape, but it would be gote
Uberdude [3d\]\: f4 more sense as f6 doesnt have the miai to the left like normal;
Uberdude [3d\]\: so b would just answer at g4 and then f6 a bit odd
]
;B[hn]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: though should at least mean you don't die and have sente
]
;W[hm]C[USGO3 [-\]\: black has just entered byo yomi
USGO3 [-\]\: 40 seconds five times
]
;B[fn]C[Fixe [15k?\]\: white time please ?
USGO3 [-\]\: white has 36 minuties reimaining
]
;W[eq]C[Fixe [15k?\]\: ok thanks
Eggplant [3d\]\: byo yomi pretty harsh.
];B[er]
;W[gq];B[fr];W[gm];B[en]C[OneStone [6d\]\: But no ladder
];W[do]C[OneStone [6d\]\: f8 and d7 and e8 all make sense
]
;B[el]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W has little choice but to defend the corner
OneStone [6d\]\: and B will have to defend at h4 anyway
OneStone [6d\]\: or is W planning to play something like j4 ?
OneStone [6d\]\: or j5 ?
]
;W[bl]C[OneStone [6d\]\: if j6, B plays h4 - that's hardly worth it for W
];B[bk]
C[OneStone [6d\]\: c7 makes life in sente?
];W[bm]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W is aiming at d9
]
;B[bq]C[OneStone [6d\]\: d9 c9 d7
];W[bp];B[dq];W[cp]C[OneStone [6d\]\: b2 is hardly sente
]
;B[br];W[dk]C[OneStone [6d\]\: Locally b2 is sente, of course, but W will fight first.
OneStone [6d\]\: d8 is the only move
]
;B[ek]C[OneStone [6d\]\: hmmmm
OneStone [6d\]\: this looks dangerous already
Uberdude [3d\]\: j6 and d7?
OneStone [6d\]\: d7 is possible or not?
]
;W[dj]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: i dunno if w wants to j6 or use ladder breaker
Uberdude [3d\]\: on those 4 stones
]
;B[ck]C[OneStone [6d\]\: b5 a5 a8 a7 b6 kills
OneStone [6d\]\: I would play d7 d8 e7 now
OneStone [6d\]\: because w j7 is sente
Uberdude [3d\]\: ah j7 yeah sente too and can be better
]
;W[dl]C[OneStone [6d\]\: at any rate, e8 is in way too much trouble.
];B[dm];W[cm]
C[OneStone [6d\]\: wd11 is sente
];B[fh];W[ej]C[OneStone [6d\]\: So B can't easily play e10 d11 f12
Hollumber [7d?\]\: nice timing on cut
OneStone [6d\]\: but e10 was definitely the vital point
tchitchi [2d\]\: why b couldn't playd11 directly
]
;B[gh]C[hobajons [-\]\: huge trade inc
OneStone [6d\]\: Not huge, just bad
OneStone [6d\]\: g10 is enough for W
]
;W[fj];B[hg]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: and then, s17!
];W[ch];B[bg]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B looks dead
smajdalf [1d\]\: where?
OneStone [6d\]\: fortunately he killed f14
]
;W[mn]C[OneStone [6d\]\: c12 b13 exchange was just bad
Hollumber [7d?\]\: for w?
OneStone [6d\]\: B is severely handicapped because of ladder aji at h4
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah
]
;B[in]C[OneStone [6d\]\: I think it's time to resign
duffman [1d\]\: b r17
];W[im]
;B[jn];W[mh];B[lj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B has so many problems I wouldn't be able to count them.
OneStone [6d\]\: However, B has the potential of the cut at m16
]
;W[ki]C[OneStone [6d\]\: so w connects his stones with n12 and l11
];B[kj];W[kl]
;B[ji];W[kh];B[pm]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B has some cutting aji at o6
];W[ql];B[ij]
;W[jk];B[jj];W[qc];B[rh]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W is 10-15 pnts ahead
];W[ri];B[rd];W[if]
;B[gf];W[sh];B[rc];W[rb];B[eb];W[oe]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: why is b still playing? surely he knows..
]
;B[ob];W[ma]C[BobWhoosta [1d\]\: Pro tournament, so I'm sure he won't give up easily.
USGO3 [-\]\: Ryan Li wins by resignation
Hollumber [7d?\]\: gg
USGO3 [-\]\: thanks for watching!
Hollumber [7d?\]\: thanks for the relay!
lance [1k\]\: thank you USGO
Uberdude [3d\]\: thx
Uberdude [3d\]\: omg did w just kill
])

[skydyr]

There's some discussion of this move following the game posted here as well:

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=110551#p110551

[Bill Spight]

Interestingly, the position came up in one of the recent games in the AGA Pro Qualification Tournament. See move forward. As always, surroundings and the whole board matter...

(;CA[utf-8]FF[4]ST[2]RU[AGA]OT[5x40 byo-yomi]C[USGO3 [-\]\: This is round 4 of the 3rd AGA Pro Qualification Tournament
USGO3 [-\]\: I'm Dan Steinbrook, I'll be transcribing
]
AP[CGoban:3]SZ[19]GM[1]GN[3rd AGA Pro Qualification Round 4]DT[2015-01-05]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]
PB[Daniel Gourdeau]BR[7d]PW[Ryan Li]WR[7d]KM[7.5]TM[5400]RE[W+Resign]US[Dan Steinbrook]
MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qe];W[dp]C[Jermelle [?\]\: Go Ryan!
];B[pq];W[dc]C[vegmandu [3d\]\: why go ryan he is supposed to win \:)
]
;B[fq]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: DANIEL *girlish scream*
];W[cn];B[jp]C[dixxxa\: I though Kobayashi was old fashionned !
MaLa [5d?\]\: doesnt make it bad
]
;W[pc]C[dixxxa\: sure, I play it all the time !
];B[od];W[oc];B[nd];W[mc];B[pk]
C[tchitchi [2d\]\: wasn't it what black was aiming for?
Jermelle [?\]\: When did Kobayashi become old?
]
;W[md];B[me];W[le];B[mf]C[darkronin [3k\]\: Who is who, for mobile users?
MaLa [5d?\]\: s every human, he became older each day
MaLa [5d?\]\: ryan is white
JeansebL [7d?\]\: Go Daniel!!!
MaLa [5d?\]\: daniel is black
]
;W[po]C[U [?\]\: k4 is rarely played in pro games now because of a certani sequence which i forgot. due to it, theres been experiments with j4 instead of k4
darkronin [3k\]\: Thanks!
Jermelle [?\]\: I play j4 now because it feels solid
tchitchi [2d\]\: or l3 combined with r4
Jermelle [?\]\: not because k4 got old lol
koke [1d\]\: All that only is right if there isn't q9
koke [1d\]\: Andrew jackson made a nice video about that on youtube
]
;B[np];W[qm]C[anewtry [1d\]\: k4 is not old
];B[rl];W[qq];B[qr];W[no];B[mo];W[pr]
C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's old, it's just not dead
duffman [1d\]\: p3
USGO2 [-\]\: koke, watch out for that andrew jackson guy, i hear he's wrong a lot.
Benzene [3d\]\: against kobayashi white just does the normal distant approach, gets strong grou on right side and wins with the large komi
koke [1d\]\: What he said made sense so..
koke [1d\]\: *you
]
;B[pp];W[qp];B[or]C[oren [?\]\: is usgo2 an Andrew Jackson?
anewbie [7k\]\: Nope Dan Steinbrook according to his introduction
oren [?\]\: that was usgo3
anewbie [7k\]\: ohhh, look at me not paying attention
oren [?\]\: ah yeah, usgo2 introduced himself too
oren [?\]\: so yeah
oren [?\]\: \:)
koke [1d\]\: It would be a little strange if he said this about andrew not being him but being in the same room \:D
]
;W[oo]C[hasu [6d\]\: p2 is so bad
xedover [?\]\: if the scribes remember, they should be putting their names in the Options -> Rules -> Transcriber field
hasu [6d\]\: next B n6
]
;B[mp];W[rr];B[ps]C[dixxxa\: Dan Steinbrook is USGO3
U [?\]\: 2 is indeed andrew jackson
]
;W[rm];B[lf];W[ke]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i think koke citing jackson was fine, since it was just a diff situation. Traditional kobayashi might be out of style, but it would make sense that k4 is fine after q9 is in place
Rukis [1k\]\: k4 is fine even without q9..
]
;B[de]C[hobajons [-\]\: li the god
];W[dh];B[ec]C[Benzene [3d\]\: magic sword please
Hollumber [7d?\]\: rukis, we were discussing how it's not so popular with pros today because of a certain sequence that U doesn't remember
]
;W[dd];B[ed];W[ee]C[Benzene [3d\]\: thank you ryan
Benzene [3d\]\: w+R
];B[df]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: what are the options here? f15? what else?
Benzene [3d\]\: e14
Benzene [3d\]\: f14 soft
dixxxa\: George C. might have an opinion
jwc [-\]\: e14 e13 f13
served [3d\]\: E18
]
;W[ef]C[Lsugyen [7d\]\: aww b made a mistake I think
Benzene [3d\]\: f15 e18 b16 d18 c15 c17 c16 b17 c14 j17
Benzene [3d\]\: and black settles on top side
Hollumber [7d?\]\: so far, josekipedia says b is fine
Benzene [3d\]\: and white's left is not spectacular
Lsugyen [7d\]\: d18 was the standard joseki
Lsugyen [7d\]\: w seems better though
]
;B[eg];W[fg]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: this shouldn't be a good variation for w
hobajons [-\]\: but it works
Hollumber [7d?\]\: what variations are you guys looking at? Assuming b can get through this unscathed, he should settle on top
spacetime [4d\]\: oh boy what do we have here
MaLa [5d?\]\: eidogo considers this variation a failure for white....
Torajiro [-\]\: eidogo is a failure
MaLa [5d?\]\: if you say so \:)
Hollumber [7d?\]\: eidogo is such a success. It has many mistakes, but I appreciate whoever put in the time/effort for creating it
r0n1n [4k\]\: i don't think we can't consider this position as a joseki anymore, considering the entire board
Benzene [3d\]\: i think josekipedia is better
Rukis [1k\]\: ron1n do you know what joseki means?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's joseki because l15 is just one space too far for the tactics
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: but eventhough josekipedia has it mistakes
Benzene [3d\]\: or ps.waltheri.net for what pros really do
r0n1n [4k\]\: yes i know rukis thanks ^^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ty benzene. I've been looking for some joseki alternatives
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ronin, i think rukis's point was joseki is just a common sequence. Perhaps you meant that this can't be considered an equal result?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or that l15 significantly influences the variations?
r0n1n [4k\]\: i just mean some of the usual josekis with this may not be equal anymore
Rukis [1k\]\: obvs you dont, if you are calling this not a joseki.
r0n1n [4k\]\: considering l15 m14 n17 and c6
r0n1n [4k\]\: but maybe i'm wrong
jwc [-\]\: d13 only move?
Rukis [1k\]\: yes but hes reading
r0n1n [4k\]\: i'm just asking \: what's an exemple of sequence that ends up qith a bad w result?
Lsugyen [7d\]\: most are
Lsugyen [7d\]\: actually
koke [1d\]\: Only because there are stones around the sequence it doesn'r mean that it isn't joseki anynore
Lsugyen [7d\]\: that's why d16 is rarely played
Rukis [1k\]\: we,, d17 mostly dies no?
r0n1n [4k\]\: yeah i chose my words badly koke
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ronin, a joseki can be unequal locally, but still be considered "joseki." I think either it's been given a wrong definition when beginners are introduced to it, or that its meaning changed over time. I'm not sure which.
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh
Rukis [1k\]\: Joseki is a settled pattern.
r0n1n [4k\]\: that's interesting
Rukis [1k\]\: but doesnt mean it doesnt have variants
JeansebL [7d?\]\: joseki means both players are satisfied with the result
r0n1n [4k\]\: i was always told it was basically "a squence in a corner that end up with both players happy
JeansebL [7d?\]\: yes that's correct
JeansebL [7d?\]\: but
Rukis [1k\]\: thats how its inturpreted.
jwc [-\]\: or both unhappy?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: sometimes it's not locally
JeansebL [7d?\]\: sometimes only 1 player has points locally, the other has influence
JeansebL [7d?\]\: so that player will be happy only if the influence works well with the rest of the board
Hollumber [7d?\]\: for example, the 3-3 invasion against 4-4 stone. Locally bad, but common against double wing moyo
koke [1d\]\: I'd say that it still is joseki you could say this is joseki but w is not happy with this cause of the surrounding stones but it still is a joseki right?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah, I just say joseki = common pattern. Simple, easy.
koke [1d\]\: Right
r0n1n [4k\]\: b looks overconcentrated
r0n1n [4k\]\: or very confused
JeansebL [7d?\]\: there's a stream?
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh no
r0n1n [4k\]\: i didn't meant his face
JeansebL [7d?\]\: loll
JeansebL [7d?\]\: how can you say he looks confused? \:p
r0n1n [4k\]\: more by the time he's takin
JeansebL [7d?\]\: ahhh
r0n1n [4k\]\: well you said it's quite unusual
USGO3 [-\]\: he is in fact concentrating very hard
r0n1n [4k\]\: you see? x)
koke [1d\]\: But are there any options than d13 it seems not
Hollumber [7d?\]\: could be reading out d18 sequences?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or some sort of sacrifice?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: not sure
]
;B[dg]C[DonValley [5d\]\: woah
];W[eh]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: well
r0n1n [4k\]\: he didn't need 10 mins for this move for sure
MaLa [5d?\]\: but for what comes up after C12
MaLa [5d?\]\:
jwc [-\]\: c12 c11
Rukis [1k\]\: he may not play c12
MaLa [5d?\]\: depending on your source, c11 is considered either as wrong or as bad
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
r0n1n [4k\]\: is c17 considered as wrong or bad?
hobajons [-\]\: go daniel!
MaLa [5d?\]\: well... C12 is still natural
]
;B[bf]C[hobajons [-\]\: O BB
MaLa [5d?\]\: uh
hobajons [-\]\: WHAT
hobajons [-\]\: ...
r0n1n [4k\]\: this looks...
Rukis [1k\]\: bet you he doesnt know the joseki
MaLa [5d?\]\: B14 is rather... unique
r0n1n [4k\]\: what next for w ?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: \:D
vegmandu [2d\]\: yeah b14 is strange
koke [1d\]\: Bet he knows the joseki but discovered a new one
MaLa [5d?\]\: but stuff is so complicated...
hobajons [-\]\: so werid
hobajons [-\]\: so cool!
MaLa [5d?\]\: that I have no idea how this would ever continue
hobajons [-\]\: w e18 probs
asdfdsfas\: prob
hobajons [-\]\: or b16
hobajons [-\]\: idk
MaLa [5d?\]\: c12 would feel natural, imho
Trevors [4k\]\: b16 for sure
hobajons [-\]\: hey qt pie
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: if whites not playing e18 black can d18 and directly squeeze white with c17 if he blocks
asdfdsfas\: sup
hobajons [-\]\: <3
asdfdsfas\: \:)
]
;W[bd]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: b doesn't really good for me
r0n1n [4k\]\: really look *
hobajons [-\]\: b probs d18
Rukis [1k\]\: so white didnt play e18 looks like black can squeeze now
hobajons [-\]\: then b f12
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: well theres b16
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ha, nice rukis
hobajons [-\]\: b may just cut straight
hobajons [-\]\: f12
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: locally black seems dead, the only way i see to do something is to cut at f12
Trevors [4k\]\: c12?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: c12 lives, i believe
Hollumber [7d?\]\: can double hane
]
;B[bh]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: and creep under for life
r0n1n [4k\]\: welll
MaLa [5d?\]\: but do you want to just live by c12 double hane? ^^
Trevors [4k\]\: mm i think decending to b12 wld live too.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: this also lives, i would think
r0n1n [4k\]\: a cookie to the one that said b12
Hollumber [7d?\]\: right, i just wanted to refute b being dead \:P
hobajons [-\]\: very interesting
r0n1n [4k\]\: no one? really?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: but now the corner is alive and white can simply attack e18 should be a succes for white ?
Trevors [4k\]\: next to squeeze corner then make life at top
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yep, looks like not such a great joseki after all
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: i want a cookier
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i want a cookiest
r0n1n [4k\]\: u want it cookier and cookier?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: like he said, he wants it cookiest
Hollumber [7d?\]\: till it don't cookie no mo
Rukis [1k\]\: I dont think this is a set pattern O.o
r0n1n [4k\]\: what does b answers to c12 ?
r0n1n [4k\]\: oh wait
r0n1n [4k\]\: my bad
r0n1n [4k\]\: missread x)
mooooo [4k\]\: so its gonna be ryan or eric this year?
Grey28 [3d\]\: Interesting b
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's ok, so did daniel
OneStone [6d\]\: Isn't that called the Great Sword Joseki or so?
]
;W[ff]C[Rukis [1k\]\: no moooo
jwc [-\]\: yes
Rukis [1k\]\: this is just a round robin
OneStone [6d\]\: Except that B blew it.
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: d18 and connceting is sente
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: against the corner
OneStone [6d\]\: d18 c18 e18 is sente, but is it enough sente now?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: and then black can something like h17 to live
r0n1n [4k\]\: is the corner unconditionnally alive?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: it's def enough sente if b can win semeai
JeansebL [7d?\]\: seems to me that black can live on both sides, which is quite good enough I think...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: and it looks like b can
OneStone [6d\]\: Exactly
OneStone [6d\]\: so he can, but W will answer with b18
OneStone [6d\]\: or b17 ?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i think must c18
jwc [-\]\: c12
OneStone [6d\]\: d18 c18 e18 and then next is the question
Hollumber [7d?\]\: oh, gotcha
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: i think white defends the corner afterwards
r0n1n [4k\]\: how many time left usgo3 please?
Trevors [4k\]\: d18 c18 wld end with white alive
USGO3 [-\]\: black has 35 minutes, white has 65 minutes
r0n1n [4k\]\: thanks
jwc [-\]\: OneStone, I think it was caaled the Magic Sword joseki
r0n1n [4k\]\: w+time
]
;B[cj]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: xD
Hollumber [7d?\]\: noice
JeansebL [7d?\]\: interesting
JeansebL [7d?\]\: black wants more, he's confident about living up there...
]
;W[kf]C[Trevors [4k\]\: still thinking g17
];B[db]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: w looks sure about killing too apparently
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: l14 seems worrysome
Rukis [1k\]\: I've consulted the oracles and they have judged this bad for black
]
;W[cb]C[r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
];B[fb];W[bb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i see ryan has been studying under lil wayne
Benzene [3d\]\: did white laugh when black played b14?
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: oracle normaly smoke pot
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "do it big and let the small fall under that"
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I personnaly like the result for black...
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: white seems confident about killing
spacetime [4d\]\: no killing going on here
r0n1n [4k\]\: is the corner alive?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: impossible...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: if b could live if white didn't play l14, i would like it, too. I really wanted to see that sequence
Trevors [4k\]\: hmmm c19
bbio [5k\]\: killing what ??? ther is nothing to kill yet
JeansebL [7d?\]\: corner sure, but can't kill black up there
Trevors [4k\]\: c16, then a17
spacetime [4d\]\: B will play around h17 now
hobajons [-\]\: w alive
JeansebL [7d?\]\: l14 surprised me...
Trevors [4k\]\: c19 sente white must make another move then blk can extend and live top easy
]
;B[ic]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: b saving the corner aji, since i guess there's no clean kill?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I see no aji
r0n1n [4k\]\: fear the crazywindsuji incoming
JeansebL [7d?\]\: you see a ko?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ko threats, at the minimum
asdfdsfas\: me neither
JeansebL [7d?\]\: well yeah... but that's not aji XD
asdfdsfas\: what was white's reasoning behind l14?
]
;W[jb]C[smajdalf [1d\]\: this resul seems actuall very good for b
asdfdsfas\: invade right side after?
JeansebL [7d?\]\: I have yet to understand l14
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: q12 invasion
Hollumber [7d?\]\: l14 seems like "I know this will die" move, but i don't think it will die...
]
;B[gd]C[Benzene [3d\]\: r15 will die
Benzene [3d\]\: or q9
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: thats why i said white is confident about killing hollumber \:)
JeansebL [7d?\]\: lol
r0n1n [4k\]\: the god w is hungry of blood and asking for a tribute
duffman [1d\]\: w can bleed \:-)
spacetime [4d\]\: who's winning? b has more but white is so thick, worried about r11 type move
ScorpianGo [2d\]\: actually this turned out to be more than ok for blac
Trevors [4k\]\: waiting for blk h14 area move
mooooo [4k\]\: so when this is round robin what do the winning players get for the championship round?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: r11 would be fine, i think. B's potential would be ruined, but I think he'd still be winning
Hollumber [7d?\]\: so long as c3 remains open, i like black
JeansebL [7d?\]\: http\://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/2014-APQF-Rules_and_Regulations.pdf
JeansebL [7d?\]\: take a look at the last page mooo
mooooo [4k\]\: Seeding\: Players will be seeded into the tournament by their ranking from APQF RRP. This list will be published prior to the first round of the Championship and any disputes must be made prior to the first round of play.
mooooo [4k\]\: got it thx
q11 [3d\]\: time for q11 genius move
]
;W[hf]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: the relevant part is that the result from the rund robin counts for future matches
MaLa [5d?\]\: \:P
bbio [5k\]\: w is patient
spacetime [4d\]\: b is not alive yet at the top perhaps
r0n1n [4k\]\: is b really gonna live un there?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: now maybe will do c19?
r0n1n [4k\]\: in*
JeansebL [7d?\]\: clearly needs 1 more move lol
Trevors [4k\]\: mmm least i was right about h14 lol
Hollumber [7d?\]\: oh, you know, i don't think c19 is sente
asdfdsfas\: it isn't
Hollumber [7d?\]\: w is alive after b19 d19
Trevors [4k\]\: ya only wrks if white plys b19
Hollumber [7d?\]\: someone said it was and i took them at their word ><
OneStone [6d\]\: Don't worry, statistically everybody is gonna be right about some move some time.
Trevors [4k\]\: lol
Grey28 [3d\]\: w patient for sente if b want live here
Trevors [4k\]\: yay!!!!!!!
Hollumber [7d?\]\: regardless of whether b lives on top, I think he's found a new joseki?
Trevors [4k\]\: it was if white went for trade h17 but i havent re looked
Hollumber [7d?\]\: or at least a good alternative for special situations
OneStone [6d\]\: b18 is alive I think
MaLa [5d?\]\: @hollumber white tenukid with L14
MaLa [5d?\]\: and B still has trouble
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b18 def alive, because b15 iss sente in sequences with c16
]
;B[jc]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: so I would not be satisified as black
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b only has trouble because of l15/l14 stones
]
;W[kb]C[MaLa [5d?\]\: this is true, but compared to the C12 variations...
MaLa [5d?\]\: this feels worse
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah. i do think it needs to be explored more, though. It seems like there could be circumstances where it would be playable
Hollumber [7d?\]\: since b also tenuki'd with c10
Hollumber [7d?\]\: and in c12 variations, w ends up with wall on left anyways
MaLa [5d?\]\: c10 feels really needed
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "tenuki'd"
MaLa [5d?\]\: otherwise C12 is super painful
OneStone [6d\]\: tenukied
mooooo [4k\]\: b needs another move to life? i would like to play n10 or f5 as b
Trevors [4k\]\: j18 settles right?
OneStone [6d\]\: B needs to play j18 anyway.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: hmm, i think what i wasn't considering was that the corner dies in most variations ><
OneStone [6d\]\: I think at that moment it becomes apparent that the k17 l18 exchange was bad for B
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ok, b14 not that great, then
MaLa [5d?\]\: C12 C15 leaves the corner alive
MaLa [5d?\]\: but in that variation black lives on both sides
MaLa [5d?\]\: in an easier fashion then here
]
;B[ie]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i see. I haven't studied this much. Most of my knowledge came from browsing josekipedia while observing this game ^^
OneStone [6d\]\: j15 j14 j18 makes certain life even more certain
Trevors [4k\]\: lol id hope
MaLa [5d?\]\: I was also mostly checking dictionary/eidogo/josekipedia \:D
OneStone [6d\]\: but it's plainly a bad exchange
MaLa [5d?\]\: but comparing those variations there to the game, I prefer the book variations for black ^^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah, i think the main book variation "punishment" from black woul have worked, since l15 was just too far
OneStone [6d\]\: btw, what is the link for the main book variation?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: on josekipedia?
]
;W[jg]C[OneStone [6d\]\: yes, either
q11 [3d\]\: a new way to troll kgs
Hollumber [7d?\]\: my internet's lagging, but you can just click through yourself. b deviates at b14
q11 [3d\]\: put relevant junk variations in josekiepdia as the game is ongoing
Trevors [4k\]\: now that n .... 11 move?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i wish they had timestamps for variations
q11 [3d\]\: k13 is an instructional shape
q11 [3d\]\: my instinct was j14
MaLa [5d?\]\: imagine kgs would display chatvariations like oro ^.^
Hollumber [7d?\]\: indeed
Hollumber [7d?\]\: same
q11 [3d\]\: but then k15 is sente
]
;B[dr]C[q11 [3d\]\: also this more power to outside
Hollumber [7d?\]\: wow. that died, apparently
OneStone [6d\]\: Is B really alive at the top?
q11 [3d\]\: ok, tsumego time
q11 [3d\]\: b is happy with ko?
]
;W[pi]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: i mean, just h18 ensures the kill, no?
mooooo [4k\]\: e19 j18 kind of miai?
q11 [3d\]\: oh no, q11 genius move like i said
mooooo [4k\]\: ah h18
q11 [3d\]\: it's
q11 [3d\]\: always brilliant
lance [1k\]\: crazywind move
JeansebL [7d?\]\: normal move...à
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b is destroyed
asdfdsfas\: um black could easily live, it didn't apparently die
Hollumber [7d?\]\: how does b live after h18?
OneStone [6d\]\: d2 was not urgent
mooooo [4k\]\: h18 j18 j19 h17 g18 g17 h19 f16 h15 e19
JeansebL [7d?\]\: but it's true D2 is questionaable...might be better to fix on the right...
]
;B[qg]C[WarMachine [2d\]\: sad move
mooooo [4k\]\: not sure though
];W[oh]C[OneStone [6d\]\: h18 j18 j19 h17 and if g18, B h19 next
]
;B[of];W[qh];B[ol]C[mooooo [4k\]\: yes h19 better then g17
];W[rg];B[rf];W[pg];B[qf]
;W[ml]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: holy cajoles. that friggin lives
Hollumber [7d?\]\: anybody found a killing sequence?
kjlkjlj\: woah looks severe
Hollumber [7d?\]\: the eyespace seems so small, but j15 makes everything so wonderful
Hollumber [7d?\]\: USGO, what did ryan look like when b played d18?
USGO3 [-\]\: he didn't seem surprised
Hollumber [7d?\]\: interesting. thanks
OneStone [6d\]\: Og, what a mess
OneStone [6d\]\: d2 was so irrelevant
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i'd either be board-flipping pissed, or depressively broken
]
;B[nj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: And what makes you think you can't be both at the same time?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: one involves a surge of energy, the other a drain
enufo3 [1d\]\: these states occur in succession, not at the same time
OneStone [6d\]\: o9 p10 n10 is shape right now, but W can also think about p10 o9 p9 o8 q8 later. Therefore he could start with n11 just to keep B seperated
]
;W[oj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: so W is going for p10 o9 and then what?
OneStone [6d\]\: after that p9 o8 q8 seems too small
q11 [3d\]\: s16?
OneStone [6d\]\: Yes W wants to play s16 asap
]
;B[nk]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: s16 for profit, then continue pressuring b
];W[ok];B[nl]
;W[pl]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: or not
r0n1n [4k\]\: lol
Hollumber [7d?\]\: seems slack..just c3 now?
]
;B[nc];W[nb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: this gone be gud
];B[mb];W[lb]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: could someone explain the threat after w p18?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: b m16? the pressure center stones? o.O
]
;B[cl];W[cq];B[cr];W[fd]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: all the kibitzers are gone \:(
];B[fc]
;W[hb]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: we can't use josekipedia to kibitz anymore
mooooo [4k\]\: whats on the clock?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: lol
OneStone [6d\]\: You are still here, Holl.
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i'm so lonelyyyy
]
;B[ib]C[OneStone [6d\]\: I'm with you...
Hollumber [7d?\]\: could you explain the n18 threat if w plays p18?
OneStone [6d\]\: h17 is not possible
Rukis [1k\]\: black lives holl
Hollumber [7d?\]\: if w p18? or are you saying currently?
Rukis [1k\]\: plus p18 doesnt capture q17
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ah, i'll need to go buy some reading glasses
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i just assumed it worked
OneStone [6d\]\: No, I can't explain it in any other way than that both made a reading mistake.
apina [1d\]\: it doesn't work, but now r17 is bigger
USGO2 [-\]\: i'm here too!
OneStone [6d\]\: But what about W h15 now?
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ah, nice
USGO2 [-\]\: i just can't kibitz with y'all
Hollumber [7d?\]\: ynot?
Rukis [1k\]\: why \:/
mooooo [4k\]\: how much time do the players have left?
]
;W[da]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W can't ever start the d19 e19 ko?
OneStone [6d\]\: Nope, he is saying that he can
mooooo [4k\]\: good call =)
Hollumber [7d?\]\: man, i'm so confused
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i thought b was dead. then i thought he was alive. now, it's somehow going to ko, and my world is crumbling down
OneStone [6d\]\: Well, that's because now the men are called upon to do the heavy reading work.
Rukis [1k\]\: its because white didnt play p18 this has come to ko
Hollumber [7d?\]\: i wonder how long it would take to get to that reading level. I don't care much for joseki or style or anything, although it's interesting. I just wanna be able to outread any 5d
OneStone [6d\]\: Nah, that's a non sequitur, Rukis
Rukis [1k\]\: what
OneStone [6d\]\: It's a matter of practice, Holl
Hollumber [7d?\]\: "irrelevant"
]
;B[fe]C[OneStone [6d\]\: Non sequitur = 'does not follow'
Rukis [1k\]\: actually its quite relevant, j18 becomes sente
OneStone [6d\]\: i.e. (id est)/ergo, there is no cause-and-effect relationship
]
;W[ia]C[Rukis [1k\]\: now everyone go nuts becuase b captured a stone \:O
OneStone [6d\]\: Yes, that is true, but this is a different level of reading, Rukis
]
;B[hc]C[USGO3 [-\]\: black 5 min main time remaining
OneStone [6d\]\: h15 now
OneStone [6d\]\: And the other thing, Rukis, is that if it really gonna be ko, W can't lose it. In general, it's not a ko W would/should start.
OneStone [6d\]\: If W wants to kill, he needs to play h15 now
]
;W[gb]C[OneStone [6d\]\: g18 looks weird
OneStone [6d\]\: h15 is alive now
OneStone [6d\]\: but then, W f19 is sente, which is big
apina [1d\]\: w thinks it's alive anyway?
apina [1d\]\: ant then this is points?
Rukis [1k\]\: black can play f19 too
apina [1d\]\: can he?
]
;B[he]C[OneStone [6d\]\: What about e19 e18 h13 ?
];W[fa]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B gives in under tghe pressure
apina [1d\]\: sente points
Rukis [1k\]\: and now the m16 is real
OneStone [6d\]\: B would have wanted to make the exchange of e19 for c19
]
;B[gc]C[OneStone [6d\]\: that would make a difference of about 4-5 pnts
OneStone [6d\]\: B could have used j14 and g14 as ko threats
OneStone [6d\]\: W n6 or n7 looks attractive now
OneStone [6d\]\: But maybe w f6 makes more common sense.
]
;W[fp];B[gp];W[fo];B[go];W[gn]C[OneStone [6d\]\: h4 is normal shape, but it would be gote
Uberdude [3d\]\: f4 more sense as f6 doesnt have the miai to the left like normal;
Uberdude [3d\]\: so b would just answer at g4 and then f6 a bit odd
]
;B[hn]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: though should at least mean you don't die and have sente
]
;W[hm]C[USGO3 [-\]\: black has just entered byo yomi
USGO3 [-\]\: 40 seconds five times
]
;B[fn]C[Fixe [15k?\]\: white time please ?
USGO3 [-\]\: white has 36 minuties reimaining
]
;W[eq]C[Fixe [15k?\]\: ok thanks
Eggplant [3d\]\: byo yomi pretty harsh.
];B[er]
;W[gq];B[fr];W[gm];B[en]C[OneStone [6d\]\: But no ladder
];W[do]C[OneStone [6d\]\: f8 and d7 and e8 all make sense
]
;B[el]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W has little choice but to defend the corner
OneStone [6d\]\: and B will have to defend at h4 anyway
OneStone [6d\]\: or is W planning to play something like j4 ?
OneStone [6d\]\: or j5 ?
]
;W[bl]C[OneStone [6d\]\: if j6, B plays h4 - that's hardly worth it for W
];B[bk]
C[OneStone [6d\]\: c7 makes life in sente?
];W[bm]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W is aiming at d9
]
;B[bq]C[OneStone [6d\]\: d9 c9 d7
];W[bp];B[dq];W[cp]C[OneStone [6d\]\: b2 is hardly sente
]
;B[br];W[dk]C[OneStone [6d\]\: Locally b2 is sente, of course, but W will fight first.
OneStone [6d\]\: d8 is the only move
]
;B[ek]C[OneStone [6d\]\: hmmmm
OneStone [6d\]\: this looks dangerous already
Uberdude [3d\]\: j6 and d7?
OneStone [6d\]\: d7 is possible or not?
]
;W[dj]C[Uberdude [3d\]\: i dunno if w wants to j6 or use ladder breaker
Uberdude [3d\]\: on those 4 stones
]
;B[ck]C[OneStone [6d\]\: b5 a5 a8 a7 b6 kills
OneStone [6d\]\: I would play d7 d8 e7 now
OneStone [6d\]\: because w j7 is sente
Uberdude [3d\]\: ah j7 yeah sente too and can be better
]
;W[dl]C[OneStone [6d\]\: at any rate, e8 is in way too much trouble.
];B[dm];W[cm]
C[OneStone [6d\]\: wd11 is sente
];B[fh];W[ej]C[OneStone [6d\]\: So B can't easily play e10 d11 f12
Hollumber [7d?\]\: nice timing on cut
OneStone [6d\]\: but e10 was definitely the vital point
tchitchi [2d\]\: why b couldn't playd11 directly
]
;B[gh]C[hobajons [-\]\: huge trade inc
OneStone [6d\]\: Not huge, just bad
OneStone [6d\]\: g10 is enough for W
]
;W[fj];B[hg]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: and then, s17!
];W[ch];B[bg]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B looks dead
smajdalf [1d\]\: where?
OneStone [6d\]\: fortunately he killed f14
]
;W[mn]C[OneStone [6d\]\: c12 b13 exchange was just bad
Hollumber [7d?\]\: for w?
OneStone [6d\]\: B is severely handicapped because of ladder aji at h4
Hollumber [7d?\]\: yeah
]
;B[in]C[OneStone [6d\]\: I think it's time to resign
duffman [1d\]\: b r17
];W[im]
;B[jn];W[mh];B[lj]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B has so many problems I wouldn't be able to count them.
OneStone [6d\]\: However, B has the potential of the cut at m16
]
;W[ki]C[OneStone [6d\]\: so w connects his stones with n12 and l11
];B[kj];W[kl]
;B[ji];W[kh];B[pm]C[OneStone [6d\]\: B has some cutting aji at o6
];W[ql];B[ij]
;W[jk];B[jj];W[qc];B[rh]C[OneStone [6d\]\: W is 10-15 pnts ahead
];W[ri];B[rd];W[if]
;B[gf];W[sh];B[rc];W[rb];B[eb];W[oe]C[Hollumber [7d?\]\: why is b still playing? surely he knows..
]
;B[ob];W[ma]C[BobWhoosta [1d\]\: Pro tournament, so I'm sure he won't give up easily.
USGO3 [-\]\: Ryan Li wins by resignation
Hollumber [7d?\]\: gg
USGO3 [-\]\: thanks for watching!
Hollumber [7d?\]\: thanks for the relay!
lance [1k\]\: thank you USGO
Uberdude [3d\]\: thx
Uberdude [3d\]\: omg did w just kill
])

Calling that the same position, even with the qualification, may confuse Nathanl.

[lightvector]

As far as I know, getting a severe attack on black via the inside placement here normally *also* requires white to have a working ladder to the lower left.

$$Wc Normal joseki shape with white approach, plus a push and block
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . T . B . |
$$ . . . W . X . . X W . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Normal joseki shape with white approach, plus a push and block
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . T . B . |
$$ . . . W . X . . X W . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

If instead the ladder favors black, followed by here is the key combination to survive. Black either kills white's attempt and has plenty of resources and strength afterwards, or trades and gets some of white's stones in return.

$$Wc A and B are miai as long as the ladder is good for black
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 3 X . |
$$ . . . O . X b 5 X O . |
$$ . , . . . . 7 X 6 O . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . a . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc A and B are miai as long as the ladder is good for black
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 3 X . |
$$ . . . O . X b 5 X O . |
$$ . , . . . . 7 X 6 O . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . a . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

And here's the ladder:

$$Wc Ladder
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ . . . O . X 4 O X O . |
$$ . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Ladder
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ . . . O . X 4 O X O . |
$$ . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Moreover, in the event that black has managed beforehand to get white to respond submissively to a move such as the attachment like so, then black is actually okay here.

$$Wc Black is quite hard to attack
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . O . X . . X O . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black is quite hard to attack
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . O . X . . X O . |
$$ . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

doesn't work so well now because there isn't even a ladder. Black just wins outright.

$$Wc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 3 X . |
$$ . . . O . X . 5 X O . |
$$ . , . . . . 7 X 6 O . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 3 X . |
$$ . . . O . X . 5 X O . |
$$ . , . . . . 7 X 6 O . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

$$Wc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . X . |
$$ . . . . . 5 X O O X . |
$$ . . . O . X 3 O X O . |
$$ . , . . . 4 O X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . X 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . X . |
$$ . . . . . 5 X O O X . |
$$ . . . O . X 3 O X O . |
$$ . , . . . 4 O X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . X 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Obviously in a tactical mess like this, the fine placement of nearby stones could affect things a lot. But it does show that black has some resources here and that white's placement can often just fail to work.

[schawipp]

I have added a sub variation, which I remember, to amatterof's SGF:

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
AW[lc][rd][qf]AB[nc][qc][pd]
;B[]
;W[rc]
;B[rb]
;W[pb]
(;B[qb]
;W[oc]
;B[od]
;W[nb]C[Black cannot play N18.])
(;B[ob]
;W[qb]
(;B[pc]
;W[ra]
;B[sb]
;W[sc]
(;B[re]
;W[qe]
;B[qd]
;W[sa])
(;B[qe]
;W[re]
;B[pf]
;W[pg]))
(;B[ra]C[This move is possible if black has a ladder one below the main diagonal]
;W[pc]
;B[qd]
(;W[oc]C[if white plays here, black is happy...]
;B[od]
;W[nb]
;B[pa]
;W[oa]
;B[qa]
;W[ob]
;B[mb]C[... because of that ])
(;W[od]C[therefore w plays here]
(;B[re]C[forget this move, it is bullshit]
;W[pe]
;B[qe]
;W[rf]C[:X])
(;B[pe]C[this seems the only move, black now threatens to capture on S15 or cut on P17]
;W[qe]C[therefore white removes liberties]
;B[oc]C[black cuts]
;W[oe]
;B[pf]C[and finally we have the ladder])))))

edit: Corrected a blunder in the SGF
edit^2: I have just seen that lightvector has already mentioned this variation, if an admin could remove this duplicate post, I'm ok with it!

[Nathanl]

Thanks! Great information. It's good to know it isn't as cut and dry as it was implied. I ended up playing it in a game as white to see how it went. Cut off the whole corner, although black could have defended better at several points.