Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

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Bill Spight
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

Bantari wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

This is confusing to me. What you say "better" what do you mean by that? Better for whom? Better in what sense?

Here is what I am thinking. Look at the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Diagonal or parallel?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what it boils down to. Can we say that Black should now play (a)? Or is (b) better? And why?


What we can say is that if one is better than the other, it is (b) unless :w1: is a mistake.

The same can be said for White's second move. Can we say (1) is better than (a)?


We can say that if one is a mistake, it is (1).

Do we want to say any of that, anyways?


If we want to avoid a mistake, even at the cost of preventing a mistake by the opponent, we play for the parallel star points.

By the same token, you can say that both players can always prevent, for example, chinese fuseki, or san-ren-sei. Does that make ni-ren-sei in any way "better" than either of the two?


You cannot always answer such questions. For instance, which diagram is better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. sanrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wedge vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this is the question before us, only Black gets to choose between the two. Therefore we cannot say which is better with that kind of argument.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bantari »

HermanHiddema wrote:The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

The same can be said for most openings. And for most sequences in general.
- Bantari
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

Bantari wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

The same can be said for most openings. And for most sequences in general.


The same cannot be said for most openings and sequences. The point is that each player must be able to guarantee something. Here, each player can guarantee a parallel opening. And miai is involved.

Above I showed how only Black can guarantee sanrensei, given parallel star points. But there is a miai that each player can enforce, given parallel star points, and play only on the star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And that is that one player gets the top side star point and the other player gets the other one, no matter who gets the right or left sides.

That means that in these positions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Somebody may have made a mistake.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

Thus, if we restrict ourselves to play on the star points and play corners before sides, there are only two fuseki patterns that we need to learn. Each player can enforce one or the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yonrensei vs. yonrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wedge vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I submit that, if we start with setup stones for training, these are the two patterns to practice. :)
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by tekesta »

So far I am encouraged by the posts on this thread :) Since beginners are not likely to have a good command of the opening, preset opening patterns are a good way to begin learning how to use advantages offered by a particular opening pattern. Japanese-style handicap has the benefit of demonstrating good opening setups.

However, as I've mentioned before some players rely on strong opening skills and neglect to develop middle game fighting and this can be a real drag when one plays against an opponent with strong reading ability and a compulsion to attack. This is one reason why I suggested playing Classical Chinese style; the prevalence of weak groups is often conducive to a fighting game. Watching out for and shoring up weak groups is a vital skill for those aspiring to reach shodan. There is no need to play under classical Chinese rules exclusively. Even on a part-time basis this can serve as a useful supplement to a study régime centered on the regular game.

It would be nice if there were a small group of players that played under Classical Chinese rules most or all of the time, but that is a topic for another thread, I guess.

Another alternative is just to play even (on an empty board) and give the less experienced side a reverse komi of, say, 15 points per stone of handicap.
Last edited by tekesta on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by tekesta »

Bill Spight wrote:Thus, if we restrict ourselves to play on the star points and play corners before sides, there are only two fuseki patterns that we need to learn. Each player can enforce one or the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yonrensei vs. yonrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Looks like an interesting alternative to the handicap game. Good for players of similar strength.

and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wedge vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This one would lead to a more fighting-oriented game, I think. Might be better for beginners to start on this setup before playing on the above one.

I submit that, if we start with setup stones for training, these are the two patterns to practice. :)
I think that, for beginners at least, prefixed opening patterns are helpful to compensate for the lack of opening knowledge. Also, by studying and playing with different forms of prefixed openings, the player can begin to develop a feel for how to play in X opening. Once the player has developed confidence in doing so, some deviation from standard opening pattern can be encouraged.

IMO, beginners should not concentrate too much on openings. Rather, they should emphasize middle game and endgame tactics. Once these have been developed to a high degree, then further opening study can be encouraged. Anyone who has played young children studying Go on a professional basis will find that, while they tend to make strategic errors, their tactical skills tend to be highly developed, hence their penchant for fighting games.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

Why do people have no faith in the opening? :o
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by skydyr »

Bill Spight wrote:Why do people have no faith in the opening? :o


I'm not sure it's a lack of faith in the opening so much as being able to play a relatively good opening and then being torn to shreds by a better fighter in the middlegame because they don't know how to handle it.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

skydyr wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Why do people have no faith in the opening? :o


I'm not sure it's a lack of faith in the opening so much as being able to play a relatively good opening and then being torn to shreds by a better fighter in the middlegame because they don't know how to handle it.


I guess that's a more impressive experience than, I won every fight. How did I lose? ;)
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bantari »

Bill Spight wrote:
skydyr wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Why do people have no faith in the opening? :o


I'm not sure it's a lack of faith in the opening so much as being able to play a relatively good opening and then being torn to shreds by a better fighter in the middlegame because they don't know how to handle it.


I guess that's a more impressive experience than, I won every fight. How did I lose? ;)

Well, if you won every fight and still lost, its not a fuse issue. You have bigger problems. So its slightly OT here.

Bottom line - fuseki, unless totally botched, can give you slight advantage or disadvantage, true. But a slightly inferior fuseki does not lose games, not as a rule, just like a slightly better fuse does not automatically win games. At least - not usually. Plenty of pro games can be found in which one side got better out of fuseki and yet still lost the game.

A slightly better fighting skills win games more often, imho. But your mileage might vary.

And it really has nothing to do with having or lacking faith in opening. Opening certainly has its place, and it is important. But it is not all there is to Go, other skills are every bit as important. Often more so, depending on the game, on the opponent, on the amount of beer you drunk, and sometimes even on the time of the day.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by mitsun »

We are getting way off topic, but how about this for a test of the relative importance of fuseki skill: even game, professional versus amateur, each plays to the best of his ability, but switch colors after N moves. How large would N have to be for the superior opening to win?
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by tekesta »

mitsun wrote:We are getting way off topic, but how about this for a test of the relative importance of fuseki skill: even game, professional versus amateur, each plays to the best of his ability, but switch colors after N moves. How large would N have to be for the superior opening to win?
That sounds sensible. The pro would have strong tactical skills to make the most of an opening pattern. The amateur dan would have slightly weaker skills. Now, at move N, would the amateur dan be able to sustain the lead established by the pro? If the amateur can determine the minimum value of N and play the required moves, then it is possible.

Fuseki is of high importance and might be decisive between players of equal tactical skill. IN the regular game, there are various opening patterns and the player should acquaint herself with as many of the most common ones as possible.

Fuseki patterns and joseki patterns change with the times. Even in Shusai Honinbo's time 4-4 was not a commonly played point in the opening. After the Shin Fuseki era, however, 4-4 became common and nowadays there are few pro games in which there isn't a 4-4 opening.

The tactics used to make the most of the advantages offered by each opening rarely change. Which is why most pros tell us to concentrate on life & death and tesuji. Once these are laid down as foundations for skill, the other categories are doable.

My assertion is that if, for the first year or so, the novice plays under Chinese classical rules she will develop strong reading ability for middle game and endgame, despite the prefixed opening. Since the seated stones are on 4-4 points, this method can serve as partial preparation for playing in current styles. Once the novice makes the switch to regular rules, she will have enough reading strength to make for a smooth transition. Of course there will be new openings to study and master, but the tactical skills will already be highly developed.

So, in an attempt to get back on topic, I say that we investigate the possibility of playing under Chinese classical rules, at least on a part-time basis and probably even on a full-time basis as a way to train beginners, at least those who might find the empty-board game to be intimidating.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by Bill Spight »

mitsun wrote:We are getting way off topic, but how about this for a test of the relative importance of fuseki skill: even game, professional versus amateur, each plays to the best of his ability, but switch colors after N moves. How large would N have to be for the superior opening to win?


Interesting question. :)

To forestall any questions about playing against themselves, we might have pro-am teams where one pro plays the first part of the game and the pro on the other side plays the last part of the game.

Now, I also do not think that it is important for beginners to study fuseki, which is one reason why I like to start them on small boards. What I object to is the idea that they have to become really good tactically before they learn to play the whole board. It is good to study whole board play, even as a DDK. Now, since even 5 kyu players can blow the game near the end because of damezumari, I think that the amateurs should be dan players.

Given that, I think that crossover point to make a roughly even game comes at least after move 75. That is well into the middle game, but the opening is not worth both the middle game and the endgame. If the crossover came at move 50 I would think that the pro first side would lose. I also think that the crossover point should come before move 120. If we actually experimented with this, we might initially try a crossover at move 100. :)

Edit: BTW, this might be an interesting way to have a teaching game. The players play without handicap and switch sides after 2N moves. :)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by snorri »

I don't believe the diagonal opening is different enough. After 4 moves, almost any kind of game can still develop. In fact, one could argue that the 4-4 josekis are on average tactically simpler.
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Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Post by tekesta »

Bill Spight wrote:Interesting question. :)

To forestall any questions about playing against themselves, we might have pro-am teams where one pro plays the first part of the game and the pro on the other side plays the last part of the game.
It might make for an interesting form of teaching game. At the moment I don't see even a Western pro beating a candidate (student studying for professional qualification) in a tournament; each side is product of different training régimes. Cristian Pop once mentioned this in an article wherein, among other things, he talked about the presence of insei at the World Amateur Go Championships. This is a topic for another thread, though.

Now, I also do not think that it is important for beginners to study fuseki, which is one reason why I like to start them on small boards. What I object to is the idea that they have to become really good tactically before they learn to play the whole board. It is good to study whole board play, even as a DDK. Now, since even 5 kyu players can blow the game near the end because of damezumari, I think that the amateurs should be dan players.
I concur on this one. Learning how to play whole board is something that takes time, so for beginners some time on 9x9 and 13x13 is good. I find that these sizes help me to refine my tactical abilities. Those players at DDK level can begin studying whole-board problems, even if they will not be able to solve them quickly at first. Plenty of practice with whole-board problems will, in the long run, help the beginner reduce strategic errors.
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