OCA's log

S2W · Post by **S2W** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:05 am

Some more comments (btw I think your game is really improving)

oca · Post by **oca** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:59 am

Thank you very much Charles and S2W !

at E4 is quite a surprise for me. If I understand well, this is an influence point right ? so it is more urgent then approaching a corner is it ?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:21 am

The bigger surprise to me is that no one mentioned your rather strange tenuki of the d6 attachment to jump into 3-3. When you double approach a 4-4 you want to pressure it strongly, so answer with hane to keep attacking and develop on both sides. The time you sometimes see tenuki of the attachment is when white already has a pincer stone on that side (e.g. at c8).

Oh and for that Cho - Sakata game, don't try to live as white, just kill black before he kills you is good enough

.

oca · Post by **oca** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:35 am

Thx Uberdude, maybe something like that ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O . 6 4 . . | $$ , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:39 am

No, don't like black get that vital bulge point of 4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O . . . . . | $$ , . . 6 . . X 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Edit, actually jump into 3-3 for 4 could be possible, but if there are no pincer stones (which means neither of the white groups on either side are weak) I prefer to play both sides.

oca · Post by **oca** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:49 am

Uberdude wrote:for that Cho - Sakata game, don't try to live as white, just kill black before he kills you is good enough .

my best try so far is

making a bamboo join

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . X X O O 2 | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:55 am

o4 at q2 is vital point later, also beware white r7. And what about white 44 at s3? You can also play like this to make it easier, but then the corner is open:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . X X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:24 pm

oca wrote: at E4 is quite a surprise for me. If I understand well, this is an influence point right ? so it is more urgent then approaching a corner is it ?

Approaching a 4-4 point may or may not be urgent: it all depends on the overall position (and more so than for approaching a 4-3 point, which typically takes priority). If White had wanted to make a big framework based in the top left, the approach to the top right was on the wrong side. Your low stone on the top side makes it less urgent to play a second stone there. White can't do much with just one more stone.

The E4 point helps you build up on the lower side, and your stone in the lower right then starts to look well placed. You can still cause trouble by playing at B6, so White feels constrained. It's a very good shape point (bulge), and seems fine strategically as well. A pushing battle may result, but I can't see you have anything to fear.

It is consistent to emphasise the lower side, in other words.

oca · Post by **oca** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:50 pm

Hi,

This is my really first try to play "sabaki" (near move

)

I'm not sure 31 was a good idea... but that was an opportunity to try that sabaki play... I suppose 41 is wrong... and should be more played like in the variation...

I won this won by a few points, but there is a reverse komi... anyway, I'm quiet happy of that game...

Any comments welcome.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:17 pm

While there were other options to consider, like wedging in the center of the left side or taking the top, it seems like you got a decent result out of the sequence. Well played.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:20 am

skydyr wrote:... like wedging in the center of the left side ...

Hi skydyr,

you mean like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O O O O . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X X X O . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

doesn't that help black to much to build his territory while attacking my stone ? white looks so solid on that left side...
I suppose that I should then try to somehow use

as making a two space extension at "a" or "b" seems too close to a white stones, or maybe just jumping to "c" build a wall and attack the top left shimari ?

what would be your tatic after that

? and is

correct or should it elsewhere on the 3rd line more close to the top/bottom groups (like maybe at "d"?)

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:24 am

oca wrote:
skydyr wrote:... like wedging in the center of the left side ...
Hi skydyr,

you mean like this :
$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . g O , . . . . . f . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . h a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O i . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X X X O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . e . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . g O , . . . . . f . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . h a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O O O O i . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X X X O . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
doesn't that help black to much to build his territory while attacking my stone ? white looks so solid on that left side...
I suppose that I should then try to somehow use as making a two space extension at "a" or "b" seems too close to a white stones, or maybe just jumping to "c" build a wall and attack the top left shimari ?

what would be your tatic after that ? and is correct or should it elsewhere on the 3rd line more close to the top/bottom groups (like maybe at "d"?)

That's what I was thinking, but I must confess it just popped into my head and I didn't do any conscious consideration of it or reading. As you noted, black has A and B to try and handle the situation lightly as well. One point higher, on the fourth line, may also work. The other alternative is something like E or F that I added to the quoted diagram. None of this is to say that your move is wrong, however.

Another consideration is that your

(g in the diagram) is usually played as a probe. This means that you're asking white to commit to a particular line or strategy. Maybe white will go for the corner, maybe he'll go for the outside, etc. Once you know what he wants to develop because of his response, you can tenuki to respond to that strategy. If white played A in response, then he's trying to build a moyo at the expense of letting you live in the corner, so you can go ahead and play a reduction and then live in the corner at a later time, when it's big enough. If white goes back to kill the aji in the corner, you basically got a free move out of it, since white played locally in gote twice to your one move.

If white responds to G with H, and continues as in your game, then white wants the corner and is willing to give up the outside for it. This makes a reduction less urgent, so you could move to play E after the sequence, and so forth. The real goal is that if white wants to remove the aji of the stone there, it will take white more than one move, and white will be committing himself to a particular strategy in the meanwhile instead of leaving his options more open.

As one last note, I also want to point out that I, looking to cut white's position in two, could be a gigantic move in the right circumstances. White was probably right to take it when he did.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:55 am

There are two themes in this game:

Opportunities to cut:
95, 113, 153

Playing too close to strength, either own or opponent's strength
61, 65, 67 and arguably 25, 31

See sgf

Edit: I retract my comment about 61. Now it looks like a splendid move to me, one that deserved follow-up at 65. I'm also more positive about the sabaki sequence and if White connects in gote at the bottom, I now believe the pleasure is Black's. I'm keen to learn others' opinions.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:26 am

Knotwilg wrote:There are two themes in this game:
...
Playing too close to strength
...

Hi Knotwilg,

Thanks for your comments, me playing too close to strength is something that I'am both "aware of" and even so, that I cannot help to do... weird...
I should really try harder not to do that ! I will try to ask my self on each move if this is near thickness, and if so if this is really really what I want. I did that with broken shape and that helped a bit so maybe that would help me here too

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:22 am

I'm currently reading "Attack and Defense" (but for now "defense" is still to be read...)
and "Attack" is still maturing in my head...

so here is a game I played trying to apply all whose things that are flying in my head
and that was a big crash... so here is the game

I have put a lot of comments in the game till move 74
killing move is black 103 I think.

Any comment welcome !

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